The legitimacy of depression as an illness. (9 Viewers)

[Scissors]

Iron, do you actually believe in half the shit that you spout?

 

[Ben Netanyahu]

*spout

 

[Scissors]

*spout

fixed. thanks comrade.

 

[Ben Netanyahu]

Pretty upset that you defriended Nebuchanezzar

edit: makes me depressed etc etc etc

 

[Iron]

Whathee
I deent eat anee KORRRN

 

[KFunk]

Quality thread imo. I've been thinking about how, formerly in the thread I accused psychiatry of being a psuedo-science (which was painting things a bit simply with too broader brush), on the basis that areas of it apparently are untestable and unfalsifiable.

But how important are these things anyway?

Testability never stopped the theory of evolution. Evolution is of course, possible to test, but afaik there have been a few failed experiments, and no major successful ones. Experimental results don't form the bulk of the evidence for the theory.

Testability and, in particular, falsifiability are very important for any science. However, sometimes it is necessary to compromise somewhat, especially in the social sciences where the rigorous controlled experiments of the physical sciences are generally not possible.

Psychotherapy, for example, is notorious for being (1) difficult to study and (2) understudied. There is the issue of how to set up a placebo group in a randomized controlled trial (see American Journal of Psychiatry editorial). It is also near impossible to ensure that the practitioners involved in a psychotherapy study are all practising psychotherapy in the same way. Large studies may show small effect sizes because many practitioners are practicing psychotherapy in an ineffective way (and while this may not be a strike against psychotherapy per se, it is nonetheless quite damning at the population level).

I also find it interesting that practitioners of psychotherapy often have a leaning towards the humanities and so are less likely (on the whole) to contribute to psychotherapy research than more scientifically-minded practitioners.

Nonetheless, the science behind all this keeps rolling along.

 

[Ben Netanyahu]

Why is this in NCAP?

Ought to be moved to non-school, or the health folders at best.

If the worst moderating team in BoS history cannot moderate effectively, by keeping threads in the places that they belong, I suggest that they resign.

There are more important things that targeting AIL members, after all.

 

[Kwayera]

Why is this in NCAP?

Ought to be moved to non-school, or the health folders at best.

If the worst moderating team in BoS history cannot moderate effectively, by keeping threads in the places that they belong, I suggest that they resign.

There are more important things that targeting AIL members, after all.

If we considered it necessary to be moved, it would have been moved.

Do you think all topics about education should be moved to the school folders, and all discussion about drug legalisation to the health subforums?

 

[Cookie182]

Two points of contention,

1) In reply to Kfunk, obviously I lack your medical knowledge and won't attempt to refute the "chemical balance" argument (my attempt would only be futile and an exercise in stupidity at best). However, my opinion in regards to depression became shaped through various research I believe I did last year into the topic + discussions with a family friend who is a doctor. I think some of the sources I viewed were:

Medical Causes of Depression | Clinical-Depression.co.uk

Chemical Imbalance - What is Chemical Imbalance, What Causes It, How to Cope

Extracts such as this-

What causes chemical imbalance?

If we take a look at the research and conclusions of clinical study after clinical study, not even doctors, scientists or clinical researchers know exactly what causes a chemical imbalance. In fact, it was virtually impossible to come up with conclusive evidence.

If you ask a medical professional the reasons and causes for anxiety or depression, their answer would most likely be “A chemical imbalance.” It is because of this “chemical imbalance that the first impulse for most medical professionals treating someone with anxiety or depression is to prescribe an SSRI, MAOI or similar “chemical balancer” to treat the condition.

But in the majority of cases, the most important question has not yet been addressed:

What’s causing the chemical imbalance?

Over the years, researchers have noted a handful of possible underlying reasons for a chemical imbalance, from genetic factors to irregular brain development.

The most promising is the theory that chemical imbalance actually stems from our own thoughts and actions.

Now obviously, there is the effect of chemicals- I should have clarified that in my (limited) medical understanding, they may simply be another symptom of depression as opposed to the cause . Having said that, further research does lead me to the opinion that this is a widely debated issue amongst medical experts and that there is certainly no clear cut distinction made on the issue.

2) Kwayera’s: As Kfunk has pointed out in regards to the nature of psychotherapy, what hard-core evidence brings you to the conclusion that Neuro-linguistic Programming is a " non-sense pseudo-science". I know that it is simply a model; models have limitations but NLP has been a major advancement in understanding how communications link to behavioural patterns and essentially our mental states etc, it brought a lot of value to people's lives (myself included).

 

[Cookie182]

I can see Tom Cruise popping up soon:

"See Matt, you don't know the history of psychiatry, I do."

For those who don't get the joke:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwAaHbmF5S4

 

[Kwayera]

2) Kwayera’s: As Kfunk has pointed out in regards to the nature of psychotherapy, what hard-core evidence brings you to the conclusion that Neuro-linguistic Programming is a " non-sense pseudo-science". I know that it is simply a model; models have limitations but NLP has been a major advancement in understanding how communications link to behavioural patterns and essentially our mental states etc, it brought a lot of value to people's lives (myself included).

Maybe I went a bit too far with dismissing it as nonsense pseudo-science (maybe not far enough), but I regardless have a huge amount of suspicion for it simply because there is no empirical evidence for its efficacy. It's not an "advancement" of our understanding of said mental states and the link between communication and behaviour; it's a hypothesis (not even that, I think). Mind-over-matter doublethink is something I regard with as much suspicion as complementary medicine, and that says a lot about what I think of it.

 

[Cookie182]

Maybe I went a bit too far with dismissing it as nonsense pseudo-science (maybe not far enough), but I regardless have a huge amount of suspicion for it simply because there is no empirical evidence for its efficacy. It's not an "advancement" of our understanding of said mental states and the link between communication and behaviour; it's a hypothesis (not even that, I think). Mind-over-matter doublethink is something I regard with as much suspicion as complementary medicine, and that says a lot about what I think of it.

Do you believe in hypnosis?

Also, I imagine 'Empirical Evidence' in such subjective areas of human emotion/state/behaviour is hard to come by. I mean, with what units could we reliably measure how someone 'feels'. I mean, is it quite possibe to say that if a person is motivated through NLP to change their thought patterns (primarily on themselves) and they hence open up their map of the world and live a happier life, then NLP 'works'? I have also witnessed the 'manipulating' ability of NLP upon other humans 'live' and it can have an amazing effect.

Also I suggest reading:

Frogs Into Princes, The Structure of Magic Part 1 and The Structure of Magic Part 2 all by Bandler/Grinder.

 

[Kwayera]

I believe in the placebo effect and the power of suggestion (itself an empirical property of the mind).

 

[Cookie182]

I believe in the placebo effect and the power of suggestion (itself an empirical property of the mind).

Then let's assume that is all NLP is- if this brings someone out of "depression" (permenantly) and into an all round happier state of being, then what does that say about the 'chemical nature' of depression?

Many user's are posting as though it is a permenant fixture that you effectively battle with your whole life- ie can not cure. Which I KNOW is ridiculous (based on close experiences with supposed 'depressed' people).

 

[katie tully]

I believe in hypnosis because I watch The Mentalist.

 

[Saccharine]

Depression is a serious illness, one too many people take too lightly.
Maybe it's coz the use of the term's so overrated now.
Oh, i failed a maths test, therefore I am depressed.
He didn't look at me today, therefore I am depressed.
I just broke a nail, therefore I am depressed.
People use the term everywhere, and for every reason possible.
But in reality, it is a serious illness.
People with depression don't pretend to have it.
People with depression would tell you that they wished they'd never gotten it.
People with depression don't use it.
People with depression lose their friends, family, likes, dislikes.. and they can't control it.
It's not fair to judge someone because of this >.>

GROW UP.
And be fair.
They deserve to be understood, too.

 

[Kwayera]

Then let's assume that is all NLP is- if this brings someone out of "depression" (permenantly) and into an all round happier state of being, then what does that say about the 'chemical nature' of depression?

Well, great, then NLP is a placebo. That doesn't say much at all, really, about the chemical nature of depression, except it's perhaps possible that the body can be induced to fix or appear to fix that chemical imbalance (such is the power of the placebo effect, and why we use statistics).

 

[Cookie182]

Well, great, then NLP is a placebo. That doesn't say much at all, really, about the chemical nature of depression, except it's perhaps possible that the body can be induced to fix or appear to fix that chemical imbalance (such is the power of the placebo effect, and why we use statistics).

It says a lot. If the body can fix this supposed chemical imbalance, then why use drugs which could have other long-term health detriments?

Also, your presuming that the chemical imbalance causes depression, as oppossed to the possibility that negative self-thought/behaviour stimulates this imbalance which perpetuates the problem. The chemical's released simply become a symptom. As I openly posted above, this is simply an opinion I formed based on sources I read. I could be wrong, I'm not a med student. But I could also be correct; It appears the medical community as a whole is not even sure. It will be interesting to see Kfunk on this one.

 

[Kwayera]

It says a lot. If the body can fix this supposed chemical imbalance, then why use drugs which could have other long-term health detriments?

I said it's possible that the body can be induced to fix (or appear to fix) the chemical imbalance; perhaps I should have said in some cases, in the same way a placebo drug can appear to reduce the size of a tumor in some cases (hence power of placebo). It doesn't mean that it's actually doing anything.

Also, your presuming that the chemical imbalance causes depression, as oppossed to the possibility that negative self-thought/behaviour stimulates this imbalance which perpetuates the problem. The chemical's released simply become a symptom. As I openly posted above, this is simply an opinion I formed based on sources I read. I could be wrong, I'm not a med student. But I could also be correct; It appears the medical community as a whole is not even sure. It will be interesting to see Kfunk on this one.

What would be the mechanism for "negative self-thought/behaviour" to instigate a chemical imbalance? How could you possibly test that?

 

[KFunk]

Well, great, then NLP is a placebo.

Kwayera, there is an important difference between a placebo and a cognitive therapy. That is, the former simply requires the belief that the therapy will work while the latter involves, if we accept the relevant theoretical assumptions, alteration of cognitive networks, thought processes, relevant belief structures (pick your theoretical poison). You can't simply dismiss NLP as a placebo off the bat.

Also, I will weigh in on the whole 'chemical imbalance' debate in a bit (I dial into a teleconference first). My general feeling is that the present discussion is not giving due regard to the philosophical subtleties (in particular regarding causation and the relationship between neurotransmission and the mind).