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Update me on VSU (1 Viewer)

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It was, ogmzergrush. I know that it's a sad fact of life, but it's just one that I feel like contesting from time to time.

As for the ideological positions of those involved, NTB, I think that such a debate would clear the waters, especiallywhen the current federal Government is meant to be pragmatic rather than driven by ideology.
 

walrusbear

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Not-That-Bright said:
No, you can contest it, but considering that in the end we end up with two ideological arguments that aren't going to budge there's no point discussing.Like our endless VSU threads, it's pointless, those of us who have thought about it have come to our conclussions on the issue after hearing basically every pro/con and we won't budge.
you can stop because the policy is going to be passed :p

i feel compelled to keep bringing up the issue because it is important and i can't let it go passed without offering the criticism it deserves.
besides, maybe there are other people reading who changed their mind :p
i know i'm not going to sway yourself or wof
 

Phanatical

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Just because something is small does not mean it's not worth dealing with. Transposing your example to the university world, should the SRC ignore the issue of the lack of student services available at the Con because it's considered a "small" issue?

A bad leadership, like the one that I believe you are advocating, patches over small issues but doesn't address the underlying problems. Like constructing a building, you can have a really flashy building with lots of tiny structural defects that together create a large problem - or you can have a functional building that is guaranteed to stand for hundreds of years. A good leadership would therefore consider both "large" and "small" issues to be of importance, and would address these smaller issues with the commitment required.
 

Phanatical

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I think in many ways the issue of student unionism Is ideological. Perhaps it's not the ideology that the Liberal Party forms its economic policy upon, but it certainly comes from an ideological perspective. I'm not disputing that for a second. What I AM saying is that we cannot attack the Liberals for introducing this legislation on the basis that it's ideological, it's not ideological or whatever. In purely pragmatic terms, the Government is summarily dealing with an issue of concern to society. That's not to say I agree with its approach - but it is a better alternative than for student issues to be ignored completely. If the situation were reversed, and the proposed legislation were to introduce Universal Student Unionism, would you still argue that the issue doesn't belong in the Parliament?

What it comes down to is that in my belief, student unionism is as legitimate an issue as any other, and like any other issue deserves to be considered - whether or not it has anything to do with the economy, ideology or whatever.
 

Phanatical

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I do support USU. Just not a $540 one. I think we should be aiming at reducing that fee at my university by streamlining services and putting the expense of political protests and ideological issues on outside non-government organisations who are better equipped to deal with such issues.

Here's my hypothetical roadmap (that I've been Dying to show people), illustrating what I would do as SRC President at my university. This is what I call the "Middle Way Approach" - it's not supporting VSU, but it doesn't support USU as it stands either. I'm gonna go overboard with this point to make abundantly clear my ideological stances - since it's clear that you still do not understand what it is I stand for.


At USYD, I would eventually cease all funding to groups like the Global Solidarity Collective and the Women's Collective, but in the first year I would wean them off student funding while simultaneously working to secure resources for such groups from other organisations who specialise in those areas.

I would simultaneously allow myself a bit of political ideology, and establish a Men's Officer who would not use student resources, but rather the resources of groups such as the UWS Men's Health Information and Resource Centre, the Australasian Men's Health Forum, the Central Sydney Area Health Service (and other health services where possible), and Dads on the Air (among others). This officer would pave the way to establish a merged "Gender Issues and Equal Opportunity Officer", who doesn't distinguish between "Women's" and "Men's" issues. As I see it (ideologically), women's issues are Human issues and to suggest otherwise would reinforce rather than challenge the idea that one gender is at a greater disadvantage. This is a long term goal that would need to be fostered over a number of years, but would eventually prove both economically and ideologically better for students.

I would introduce as soon as possible a number of new committees liaising with Faculties to allow students to offer feedback to their respective schools. In my degree for example, students are concerned that our degree length is too long, and that too much travel between campuses is required. With the guide of the SRC, a faculty committee could liaise closely with the Dean to develop solutions for students.

I would also work with SU Sport to develop a new student committee to address declining health standards and malnutrition among students. As it stands, SU Sport currently provides a lot of money to one group of students, yet doesn't spend a cent on others. Again with the Con - SU Sport spent a total of $0 on services to the Con in 2005 (at the fault of the CSA, not Sport, but the point still stands). I would like to see this body work with the SRC and the Union to improve standards of living for students (especially those who live on campus). An idea proposed by one of my staff was for an Iron Chef/Ready Steady Cook competition, with the best cooks at our university asked to prepare dishes in a set time limit, that illustrate different ways of cooking on a budget, cooking with little time to spare, cooking vegetarian food etc., with all these tips being compiled into a book that would be distributed to students moving into university housing. THIS is the sort of innovative thinking we need to foster, to address the problems that REALLY affect students. Scurvy should NOT exist in the 21st century, yet there are many students who eat so badly that they have next to no Vitamin C in their diet.

My ideological beliefs are that the burden of providing the funds to maintain many of the so-called "essential" services really should not be on the shoulders of students. Instead of paying to support a faction's political whims, students should be relieved of at least Some of the burden, and able to access the resources of the SRC to a greater degree.
 
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Isn't there scope to imagine that VSU would be the kick in the pants they needed to actually start spending sensibly though? I'm sure I'm not the only one who would rethink my diehard VSU stance in light of the unions actually doing something I agreed with.

Personally I'd just like to see whatever maximises the usefulness students get out of their contributions. If USU done right genuinely does lead to more advantage for more students, then excellent, but given what I've seen, I have a hard time believing that if USU were to stay, they'd somehow decide to tidy up their act.
 
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True, I had no idea up until this all flared up that they varied so much from place to place, especially when comparing those in rural areas to the city, etc.

What concerns me though is the reform, there's been time enough for that prior to VSU and I've seen little to no change. I don't think VSU would have the support that it does if this issue was attended to earlier, rather than starting to think about it when their spending habits come under threat.
 

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I've been petitioning the SRC (as a normal student, not a representative) since late 2003 (after a few months at uni to learn how things worked) to start introducing better policies to avoid VSU when it inevitably came up.

Time proved me right. And now I'm in a position to offer a comprehensive, sensible alternative to the status quo.
 

walrusbear

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Phanatical said:
I do support USU. Just not a $540 one. I think we should be aiming at reducing that fee at my university by streamlining services and putting the expense of political protests and ideological issues on outside non-government organisations who are better equipped to deal with such issues.

Here's my hypothetical roadmap (that I've been Dying to show people), illustrating what I would do as SRC President at my university. This is what I call the "Middle Way Approach" - it's not supporting VSU, but it doesn't support USU as it stands either. I'm gonna go overboard with this point to make abundantly clear my ideological stances - since it's clear that you still do not understand what it is I stand for.


At USYD, I would eventually cease all funding to groups like the Global Solidarity Collective and the Women's Collective, but in the first year I would wean them off student funding while simultaneously working to secure resources for such groups from other organisations who specialise in those areas.

I would simultaneously allow myself a bit of political ideology, and establish a Men's Officer who would not use student resources, but rather the resources of groups such as the UWS Men's Health Information and Resource Centre, the Australasian Men's Health Forum, the Central Sydney Area Health Service (and other health services where possible), and Dads on the Air (among others). This officer would pave the way to establish a merged "Gender Issues and Equal Opportunity Officer", who doesn't distinguish between "Women's" and "Men's" issues. As I see it (ideologically), women's issues are Human issues and to suggest otherwise would reinforce rather than challenge the idea that one gender is at a greater disadvantage. This is a long term goal that would need to be fostered over a number of years, but would eventually prove both economically and ideologically better for students.

I would introduce as soon as possible a number of new committees liaising with Faculties to allow students to offer feedback to their respective schools. In my degree for example, students are concerned that our degree length is too long, and that too much travel between campuses is required. With the guide of the SRC, a faculty committee could liaise closely with the Dean to develop solutions for students.

I would also work with SU Sport to develop a new student committee to address declining health standards and malnutrition among students. As it stands, SU Sport currently provides a lot of money to one group of students, yet doesn't spend a cent on others. Again with the Con - SU Sport spent a total of $0 on services to the Con in 2005 (at the fault of the CSA, not Sport, but the point still stands). I would like to see this body work with the SRC and the Union to improve standards of living for students (especially those who live on campus). An idea proposed by one of my staff was for an Iron Chef/Ready Steady Cook competition, with the best cooks at our university asked to prepare dishes in a set time limit, that illustrate different ways of cooking on a budget, cooking with little time to spare, cooking vegetarian food etc., with all these tips being compiled into a book that would be distributed to students moving into university housing. THIS is the sort of innovative thinking we need to foster, to address the problems that REALLY affect students. Scurvy should NOT exist in the 21st century, yet there are many students who eat so badly that they have next to no Vitamin C in their diet.

My ideological beliefs are that the burden of providing the funds to maintain many of the so-called "essential" services really should not be on the shoulders of students. Instead of paying to support a faction's political whims, students should be relieved of at least Some of the burden, and able to access the resources of the SRC to a greater degree.
i don't get how YOU deeming what does and doesn't deserve funding is any different to the people doing it now
you have some good ideas though

also
why do you pretend that you want reform but refuse to condemn VSU?? VSU leaves no option for reform at all

and asqy yeah you summed it up really well. It's the conservative v progressive social politics at play here.
 
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In the interest of surviving, wouldn't student unions be forced to "reform" under VSU in the interests of securing a comparable (Though obviously less due to non-universal contribution) amount of funding? Assuming of course that the transition didn't cripple them completely, which I guess is the core of the issue here.

Though obviously unlikely, what about a change back towards USU in the future, after things have become more refined? Am I missing something that completely precludes that, or is it just an assumption that it will never happen?
 

walrusbear

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Phanatical said:
I've been petitioning the SRC (as a normal student, not a representative) since late 2003 (after a few months at uni to learn how things worked) to start introducing better policies to avoid VSU when it inevitably came up.

Time proved me right. And now I'm in a position to offer a comprehensive, sensible alternative to the status quo.
can you please fuck off with this self proclaimed authority of rationality and objectivity??
all you do is whinge about music getting no money at the moment. plus push your personal issues with the 'women's collective' or whatever.
i want to see your report, because if its anything like your blog we're in trouble. your coverage of the rally would embarrass the daily telegraph.

sorry to be a cock
but like
you realise your 'sensible' alternative is probably just a more conservative spin on the present system, right?
 

walrusbear

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ogmzergrush said:
In the interest of surviving, wouldn't student unions be forced to "reform" under VSU in the interests of securing a comparable (Though obviously less due to non-universal contribution) amount of funding? Assuming of course that the transition didn't cripple them completely, which I guess is the core of the issue here.

Though obviously unlikely, what about a change back towards USU in the future, after things have become more refined? Am I missing something that completely precludes that, or is it just an assumption that it will never happen?
it's an assumption, a fair one i'd say

i think a lot of the unions will just die. USYD's will be ok for a while, they have some money and assets i believe.
 
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In the event that there are people still not satisfied with the idea of a reformed USU, I guess the next logical possibilities are tiered membership (For those willing to compromise in part) or opt-out completely (Coupled with opting-out of services)? The latter isn't exactly nice, but if people are that determined to distance themselves from the union then I'd assume they also have no problem with distancing themselves from the benefits.

Sigh, it's all so complicated. We need time machines so we can do this by trial and errror.
 

Phanatical

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Oh, this is ridiculous. Just because I'm not resorting to personal attacks against students who support VSU doesn't mean I too am a supporter of VSU. I do think VSU will do great harm to student life at our university. But I completely understand why some students would think otherwise.
 

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ogmzergrush said:
In the event that there are people still not satisfied with the idea of a reformed USU, I guess the next logical possibilities are tiered membership (For those willing to compromise in part) or opt-out completely (Coupled with opting-out of services)? The latter isn't exactly nice, but if people are that determined to distance themselves from the union then I'd assume they also have no problem with distancing themselves from the benefits.

Sigh, it's all so complicated. We need time machines so we can do this by trial and errror.
The tiered membership idea is what will be implemented next year at USyd if Simon/Jackson/Tim get their way.
 

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