What positions in finance offer decent salaries for fewer hours than IB? (2 Viewers)

[Omnidragon]

You don't have to have a HD average across your degree, especially if you're in a double degree such as Comm/Law.

Marks-wise, they are mostly interested in seeing you can achieve some HDs, especially in your final year subjects for commerce. If you used to get Ds in 1st/2nd years, an improvement onto HDs will demonstrate a lot. That said, you need at least a mid-strong D average across your commerce.

For Macquarie though, I have seen a fair few people with low D average and strong C averages get into IBD interviews. That said, my understanding is that Macquarie interviews like everybody for round 1.

 

[turtleface]

Is it true that the Ibanks take in like 20 people (across all depts.) each year across Australia? If so, why would you possibly want to risk not getting a good job off a finance degree unless you are very very good and very into finance?

If I were doing Finance I'd be scared, especially in Melbourne cause if I miss out on one of the 2 or so jobs each Ibank offers, I'd probably end up in some poorly paid accounting/finance/quant thing like credit risk management (though i guess that happened to allan moss and he turned out ok)

If this is true its amazing. The % grads in 1st pref jobs would be like:

Accounting grads: 50%
Law grads: 10%
Finance grads: 1%

lol

 

[Omnidragon]

If you're talking about major IBs, probably 20 each firm is a fair guess. Unfortunately, there are not many firms. Some of them don't hire grads. Out of the ones that do, half of them don't hire in Melb.

But your figure of 20 probably didn't included the interns who get an instant offer.

Finally, Macq takes in heaps... just out of the people who got IBD interns this year at Macq, I know 5 of them in Melb. I'd imagine there are people I don't know. Most of these people would probably get grad offers. So that means probably 8 offers from interns for Macq IBD. Throw in another 15 for other depts. That's 23 from interns? Chuck in the grad offers? Perhaps another 20? So Macq takes 40 in Melb. I'd imagine Syd does the same.

Make it 80 across Syd/Melb for Macquarie?
UBS interns in Melb = 4 for IBD. I'd imagine 10 for Sydney across all depts? Make that 14. 10 get offers? Grad takes in another 12 across Syd/Melb? That's 22 offers across Melb + Syd for UBS.

Repeat for each bank... I am coming up with figures in the 100s.

 

[turtleface]

sorry i meant 20 per firm which makes your calculations correct anyway

the strange thing about ibanks is that only like 10% of their intakes are for the IBD. I'd hate to get into one of them if I applied for the IBD, and be told I had to go to freaking proprietary trading or even worse, retail banking or something.

with interns, I heard its really dangerous. Like supposidly a Ibank (CSFB or GSJBW or someone) invited no interns back last year (in melbourne).

 

[ND]

I'd hate to get into one of them if I applied for the IBD, and be told I had to go to freaking proprietary trading .

Are you joking? Prop trading is generally the most sought after position at a bank...

with interns, I heard its really dangerous. Like supposidly a Ibank (CSFB or GSJBW or someone) invited no interns back last year (in melbourne).

Still, if you have Goldman on your resume you shouldn't have a problem getting a grad position at a bank.

 

[turtleface]

Are you joking? Prop trading is generally the most sought after position at a bank...

I'd hate to get into one of them if I applied for the IBD, and be told I had to go to freaking proprietary trading .

Anyway, a lot of people hate trading. Doing a London shift is no fun...not even for 1 day. Even the U.S. shift sucks a bit, and you can expect to be chucked on crap like that as a junior

 

[turtleface]

Still, if you have Goldman on your resume you shouldn't have a problem getting a grad position at a bank.

I'm not sure if employers value a grad who's been to, and been rejected by GSJBW. They'd be thinking: "geez he/she couldn't even get excel number crunching right for some uni holidays work"

 

[ND]

Anyway, a lot of people hate trading. Doing a London shift is no fun...not even for 1 day. Even the U.S. shift sucks a bit, and you can expect to be chucked on crap like that as a junior

Part of my point was that there would be no reason for them to put someone who wants to be in IB into trading.

I'd sure be rather working 70- hour weeks than 100+ regardless of the time of the shifts.

I'm not sure if employers value a grad who's been to, and been rejected by GSJBW. They'd be thinking: "geez he/she couldn't even get excel number crunching right for some uni holidays work"

The bank wouldn't necessarily know that the person was rejected. Even if they did, banks generally only give out offers to the top few interns even if all of them perform well, and the recuiters know this.

 

[AppleXY]

How much remuneration would an actuary obtain, say with 10 years experience?

 

[jpr333]

Ok question. Do employers look at the individual subjects you take within a finance major in considering an application? Like to do IB you would prob need to have done mergers and acquisitions (or whatever parallel subject in other unis), but to do trading are you expected to have done a subject such as derivatives and securities, or portfolio anaylsis (for a super investment manager type job)? Cause right now besides the core units the only subjects im looking at taking is mergers and acquisitions, financial statement analsysis (technically an acct subject but can be counted towards a finance major) and tax law. Would i be better off doing more finance subjects third year then electives? Would employers look down at my degree if i 'eased' it up 3rd year with some 1st yr subjects having done the bulk of my majors 1st and 2nd yr... Help?? (at sydney uni btw)

 

[AppleXY]

Arrrgggh... Can't make my mind up... I enjoy doing accounting.. but Finance is s000 fun and exciting and I have 1.2 yrs of Foreign Exchange Trading experience, I used to for lesiure with a demo account worth $1,000,000 and its soo gr8 its not like accounting but the long hours and u have no lifestyle just drags me and acturarial I adore maths.. ahh cant make my mind wot shud i do lol.

 

[turtleface]

if trading is the equivalent to playing starcraft for professionals, then yes it'll be quite fun to do for the rest of your life.

Sounds a bit drab though, are you sure you can stand that for 35 years?

How much remuneration would an actuary obtain, say with 10 years experience?

some people probably still havent passed the iaa exams by that stage : P

 

[AppleXY]

lol naah, trading gets troublesome and pathetic.. and now u've mention it... 35 yrs of trading ahhhh HELL NO LOL... Investment Banking wud b the best job in the globe w/o the long hours... I can manage 9-8 no probs but 9-2am according to vault.com HOLY s*****t, thats out of the picture .. I'll c.. wait... (which firms other than insurance employ actuaries (all i noe is Allianz LMFAO)) I'll apply in Finance (Not tradin ), accountin, actuary sciences.. then we'll c who gets the interview (hopefully I will get into Melb Uni Commerce)

Oh yea.. I saw that graduates get $100000 and seniors can acquire $200000+ in HERE and Wikipedia; Is that true

 

[turtleface]

Oh yea.. I saw that graduates get $100000 and seniors can acquire $200000+ in HERE and Wikipedia; Is that true

I think they mean new FIAAs when they say newly qualified Actuaries.

I'm surprised its not higher, it certainly dispels the myths propagated by Actuary deptartments that Actuary salarys are higher than other Commerce grads.

Thats surprisingly low. Ah well, Actuaries get screwed here, best to go overseas

 

[RIZAL]

I'm surprised its not higher, it certainly dispels the myths propagated by Actuary deptartments that Actuary salarys are higher than other Commerce grads.

Thats surprisingly low. Ah well, Actuaries get screwed here, best to go overseas

correct me if I'm wrong but for graduates:

Actuarial: 50-70k
Accounting: 35-50k

(of course both have outliers)

 

[turtleface]

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean to say that at least its better than Accounting? I'm not sure it is..

Its been well established that graduate salaries mean nothing. Graduate Teachers earn more on average than Accounting ppl, but what does that prove? No one in their right mind would say Teacher salaries are better. Anyway, I don't really know what graduates really get because there are no good surveys on graduate salaries because comparing between professions is inappropriate.

I think its been established in a prior post that becoming an FIAA takes at least 5 years after graduation for an average student. Its my belief that most Accountants after 5 years will be earning 100K if they are ex big 4 moving into Financial Accounting roles anyway. Maybe 90K at the very most.

As for Senior Actuaries vs. Senior Accountants, eg. partners and CFOs, whose salaries go from the 500K mark to the millions.

Noone would proclaim Accounting to be an uber high salary profession, but its salaries seems higher than Actuarial based on the IAA figures.

Although to be fair on Actuary students,
In truth, I think staff at Actuarial Firms earn more than staff at Big 4 firms.

 

[AppleXY]

woah really...

When you say accountants as a (Grad) Accountants in 5 years.. in wot area?? I'm confused.. there's like Assurance, Tax, Investment Accounting and oh yea bookkeeping (<--but thats like the worst pay and no "excitsim" 2 it lol) thats only avaliable in the Big 4 (pwc, diollote, ey, kpmg)

And oh yea.. What are the major players in acturials in Australia? like PwC in pro services or UBS regarded as best IB firm. (I noe Deloitte offer Acturials and Allianz)

 

[turtleface]

And oh yea.. What are the major players in acturials in Australia? like PwC in pro services or UBS regarded as best IB firm. (I noe Deloitte offer Acturials and Allianz)

Most large Accounting firms have Actuarial Depts, they are a necessary specialist required for Auditing in particular. I think there are many Actuarial firms, the most prominent one I know of is Towers Perrin Tillinghast (?sp). Of course every Insurance and Property Company would have Actuaries too, as well as the government Actuary Deptartment

When you say accountants as a (Grad) Accountants in 5 years.. in wot area?? I'm confused.. there's like Assurance, Tax, Investment Accounting and oh yea bookkeeping (<--but thats like the worst pay and no "excitsim" 2 it lol) thats only avaliable in the Big 4 (pwc, diollote, ey, kpmg)

I don't think bookkeeping exists as an area of work anymore because its mostly done by computers. I don't think it has existed for the past 10 years or so. Some smaller companies may employ bookkeepers. Most Accounts Receivable/Payable and Payroll staff now deal with data entry more than bookkeeping. Of course there is absolutely no point graduating from University for data entry, a TAFE qualification or experience will suffice.

The figures I quote are for Audit, traditionally the second lowest pay scale in Big Four amongst the client service divisions. Tax usually gets $3000-5000 more for graduates, and Corporate Finance gets about $10,000 more, mainly because of the longer hours. The pay scales tend to even out at the mid manager levels but I think Partners vary heaps depending on profitability.

Is UBS best IB? I thought it was GSJBW. Shows how much I know lol

 

[AppleXY]

far out.. damn hours LOL... Eyyy, thx turtleface for answering my question i sincerely appreciate it

laasst one *blushes*
If u work in the Big 4's How long do u work (rough estimate)
- Grad
- Experienced (5 yrs experience)

in Finances (coz its the most best one it intergrates Mathematics with Business and uses Accounting know-how as well, so I picked that sector )

and pls don't tell me if ur work from 9-12, i might i'll shoot myself LOL (JBWere asset management 9-6 but ahhh corp. finance 9-11 NOOOO!!!!!!)

thx turtleface.. really.. thanks

oh yea, btw I don't noe UBS is biggest IB.. lol I think it is coz there have like 2,060,250 chf mill in assets

 

[turtleface]

far out.. damn hours LOL... Eyyy, thx turtleface for answering my question i sincerely appreciate it

laasst one *blushes*
If u work in the Big 4's How long do u work (rough estimate)
- Grad
- Experienced (5 yrs experience)

in Finances (coz its the most best one it intergrates Mathematics with Business and uses Accounting know-how as well, so I picked that sector )

and pls don't tell me if ur work from 9-12, i might i'll shoot myself LOL (JBWere asset management 9-6 but ahhh corp. finance 9-11 NOOOO!!!!!!)

thx turtleface.. really.. thanks

oh yea, btw I don't noe UBS is biggest IB.. lol I think it is coz there have like 2,060,250 chf mill in assets

lol I haven't really worked permanently, I think Meads and Minai talk about hours in one of the Cadetship threads and that might be more accurate

From what I've heard and seen Audit is about 8:45-6:00, but up to 10:00 and even 12:00 for bigger clients and during the year ends (maybe 1-3 months a year)

Corporate Accounting (in Commerce and Industry) is like 9-6 or something as well for the entire year, maybe a bit more

Tax is notorious during tax season, both for Big 4 right down to a sole practitioner.

With Finance, I think (guessing) its about 10-14 hours a day for trading, but I think a lot of it is shift based. So if you're on FX markets, you could be going from 11pm - 1pm. (pm) I dunno though I'm guessing. Actually theres a book you can read called "Fake" by David Bulleen, one of the Options traders in the NAB FX loss saga, it gives a good insight into the trading world though theres also some weird philosophical stuff which may muddle with people's brains, so needs to be avoided.

IB is notorious for long hours but I think it depends on your level and company as well. I think 80 hours+ a week is fair. I've heard of 3 days straight though.

Most in house finance jobs are just like Corporate Accounting jobs in terms of hours I think.