What's the appeal of Law? (2 Viewers)
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RogueAcademic
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I like that post.
But there are also a lot of human rights organisations that lawyers can work with, including Lawyers Without Borders. There are lawyers who do good work out there.
RogueAcademic
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Here's a NY Times article about the Harvard program I mentioned earlier. The article kind of opens a whole other pandora's box of issues actually:
Harvard Law, Hoping Students Will Consider Public Service, Offers Tuition Break
Elena Kagan, dean of Harvard Law School, said debt for graduates was a big issue
March 18, 2008
By JONATHAN D. GLATER
Concerned by the low numbers of law students choosing careers in public service, Harvard Law School plans to waive tuition for third-year students who pledge to spend five years working either for nonprofit organizations or the government.
The program, to be announced Tuesday, would save students more than $40,000 in tuition and follows by scant months the announcement of a sharp increase in financial aid to Harvard’s undergraduates. The law school, which already has a loan forgiveness program for students choosing public service, said it knew of no other law school offering such a tuition incentive.
“We know that debt is a big issue,” said Elena Kagan, dean of the law school. “We have tried to address that over the years with a very generous loan forgiveness program, but we started to think that we could do better.”
For years, prosecutors, public defenders and lawyers in traditionally low-paying areas of the law have argued that financial pressures were pushing graduates toward corporate law and away from the kind of careers that they would pursue in the absence of tens of thousands of dollars in student loans.
“The debt loads that people are coming out of law schools with are now in six figures,” said Joshua Marquis, the district attorney in Clatsop County, Ore., and vice president of the National District Attorneys Association. “When the debt load is that great, I have had a lot of applicants who’ve said, ‘I’d like to take the job, but I really can’t afford it.’ ”
Perhaps worse, Mr. Marquis said, some indebted young lawyers who choose to try to survive on a low salary as a junior prosecutor may decide to leave to earn more just as they gain enough experience to handle more important cases. For that reason, he added, Harvard’s program sounded like a “great idea.”
Harvard’s third-year-free program is expected to cost the law school an average of $3 million annually over the next five years, Ms. Kagan said, but that number is just an estimate because it is unclear how many students will take advantage of the offer. The law school’s share of the university’s endowment of $34.9 billion is more than $1.7 billion.
From 2003 to 2006, as many as 67 and as few as 54 of the 550 students graduating from Harvard Law went to work for a nonprofit organization or the government. That translates to 9.8 to 12.1 percent of the graduating class. A vast majority of students have chosen to join law firms, where they can earn well over $100,000 a year immediately after getting their degree.
“This is an interesting move,” Larry Kramer, dean of the law school at Stanford, said of the Harvard initiative. Compared with other loan repayment assistance programs, Mr. Kramer said, “It’s unclear whether it is more generous.”
It may be, he said, that loan forgiveness over a longer period of time may encourage more students to go into public service and stay there. He added that it would take time to see how students reacted to the program.
Brandon Weiss, 26, a third-year student at Harvard Law who plans to join a public-interest law firm after he graduates, said he thought the tuition waiver program might sway students concerned about their debt to consider more career possibilities.
“Some students come in and know that public interest is what they want to do,” said Mr. Weiss, who will not benefit from the program himself because it does not begin until next fall. “There are probably other students that know they want to go to a big law firm. This program will help those students who are in between.”
Michelle J. Anderson, dean of the law school of the City University of New York, said the waiver of tuition sounded like an ambitious experiment.
“Harvard Law School is an extremely expensive, elite law school,” Ms. Anderson said, adding that tuition at CUNY Law was less than $9,000 a year. For Harvard, she added, reducing the price “is a different way of trying to attract students” interested in public-interest jobs.
Harvard law students who want to participate in the program will have to demonstrate their commitment to public interest while in law school, through participation in clinical programs working with real clients or other activities and projects.
Students who are currently enrolled will get a partial benefit, with those who will be third-year students next year getting a $5,000 grant toward tuition if they commit to public interest, and second-year students, $10,000.
Students who clerk for a judge after they graduate will be able to count that year toward their five-year commitment. Graduates will still be able to take advantage of the existing loan-repayment assistance program.
Lawmakers have also begun paying more attention to the ways in which student debt deters graduates from going into public-interest careers. Legislation passed in the fall by Congress provides student loan forgiveness for public servants, like public defenders, librarians, teachers, firefighters and nurses, after 10 years of service.
A problem could arise for Harvard’s program if a student took the free year of tuition but then, at some point before the five years were up, decided to leave public-interest or government work to make more money. Ms. Kagan said the school would be ready for that because it already had to track graduates’ income under its existing loan forgiveness program, which provides assistance with loan payments to students in public-interest jobs.
If a student tried to switch to a high-paying job on the sly, Ms. Kagan said, “then we’re going to ask for the money back.”
Harvard Law, Hoping Students Will Consider Public Service, Offers Tuition Break
Elena Kagan, dean of Harvard Law School, said debt for graduates was a big issue
March 18, 2008
By JONATHAN D. GLATER
Concerned by the low numbers of law students choosing careers in public service, Harvard Law School plans to waive tuition for third-year students who pledge to spend five years working either for nonprofit organizations or the government.
The program, to be announced Tuesday, would save students more than $40,000 in tuition and follows by scant months the announcement of a sharp increase in financial aid to Harvard’s undergraduates. The law school, which already has a loan forgiveness program for students choosing public service, said it knew of no other law school offering such a tuition incentive.
“We know that debt is a big issue,” said Elena Kagan, dean of the law school. “We have tried to address that over the years with a very generous loan forgiveness program, but we started to think that we could do better.”
For years, prosecutors, public defenders and lawyers in traditionally low-paying areas of the law have argued that financial pressures were pushing graduates toward corporate law and away from the kind of careers that they would pursue in the absence of tens of thousands of dollars in student loans.
“The debt loads that people are coming out of law schools with are now in six figures,” said Joshua Marquis, the district attorney in Clatsop County, Ore., and vice president of the National District Attorneys Association. “When the debt load is that great, I have had a lot of applicants who’ve said, ‘I’d like to take the job, but I really can’t afford it.’ ”
Perhaps worse, Mr. Marquis said, some indebted young lawyers who choose to try to survive on a low salary as a junior prosecutor may decide to leave to earn more just as they gain enough experience to handle more important cases. For that reason, he added, Harvard’s program sounded like a “great idea.”
Harvard’s third-year-free program is expected to cost the law school an average of $3 million annually over the next five years, Ms. Kagan said, but that number is just an estimate because it is unclear how many students will take advantage of the offer. The law school’s share of the university’s endowment of $34.9 billion is more than $1.7 billion.
From 2003 to 2006, as many as 67 and as few as 54 of the 550 students graduating from Harvard Law went to work for a nonprofit organization or the government. That translates to 9.8 to 12.1 percent of the graduating class. A vast majority of students have chosen to join law firms, where they can earn well over $100,000 a year immediately after getting their degree.
“This is an interesting move,” Larry Kramer, dean of the law school at Stanford, said of the Harvard initiative. Compared with other loan repayment assistance programs, Mr. Kramer said, “It’s unclear whether it is more generous.”
It may be, he said, that loan forgiveness over a longer period of time may encourage more students to go into public service and stay there. He added that it would take time to see how students reacted to the program.
Brandon Weiss, 26, a third-year student at Harvard Law who plans to join a public-interest law firm after he graduates, said he thought the tuition waiver program might sway students concerned about their debt to consider more career possibilities.
“Some students come in and know that public interest is what they want to do,” said Mr. Weiss, who will not benefit from the program himself because it does not begin until next fall. “There are probably other students that know they want to go to a big law firm. This program will help those students who are in between.”
Michelle J. Anderson, dean of the law school of the City University of New York, said the waiver of tuition sounded like an ambitious experiment.
“Harvard Law School is an extremely expensive, elite law school,” Ms. Anderson said, adding that tuition at CUNY Law was less than $9,000 a year. For Harvard, she added, reducing the price “is a different way of trying to attract students” interested in public-interest jobs.
Harvard law students who want to participate in the program will have to demonstrate their commitment to public interest while in law school, through participation in clinical programs working with real clients or other activities and projects.
Students who are currently enrolled will get a partial benefit, with those who will be third-year students next year getting a $5,000 grant toward tuition if they commit to public interest, and second-year students, $10,000.
Students who clerk for a judge after they graduate will be able to count that year toward their five-year commitment. Graduates will still be able to take advantage of the existing loan-repayment assistance program.
Lawmakers have also begun paying more attention to the ways in which student debt deters graduates from going into public-interest careers. Legislation passed in the fall by Congress provides student loan forgiveness for public servants, like public defenders, librarians, teachers, firefighters and nurses, after 10 years of service.
A problem could arise for Harvard’s program if a student took the free year of tuition but then, at some point before the five years were up, decided to leave public-interest or government work to make more money. Ms. Kagan said the school would be ready for that because it already had to track graduates’ income under its existing loan forgiveness program, which provides assistance with loan payments to students in public-interest jobs.
If a student tried to switch to a high-paying job on the sly, Ms. Kagan said, “then we’re going to ask for the money back.”
КГБ
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this
Sums up the gist of what I was about to bother typing. A further reiteration: get off your moral high horses. To say that money/financial stability and prestige was/is not one of several ulterior motives for choosing law is complete and utter horse whack. I concede that there are probably a few genuinely good Samaritans here who would do Law for purely altruistic reasons. I place strict emphasis, however, on the word FEW.
Even so, since when has self-gratifying behaviour become so taboo, especially when one has obviously earned the right to through hard work? If someone wants to do law because of its prestige, and they've earned the right to do it, then hell, what's wrong with that? At the end of the day we always look after number one; ourselves.
RogueAcademic
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Agreed.
Not all degrees, many students doing some of the creative arts degrees don't factor money into their career choice. In this case it's all about passion for their craft.
I agree, but the distinguishing factor is the how many are doing it for money & prestige, and how many for the other reasons.
Yes money and prestige are probably stronger factors in a law degree compared to an arts degree. Also I talked about general life skills but I forgot to mention the variety of skills it bring to the workforce. There are a lot of career paths one can take after doing a law degree, which was one of the reason I decided to study law. You are not limited to being a solicitor, barrister or judge. You can go into commerce and business (even if you didn't do commerce), become a politician, an academic, work for charitable organisations (Environmental, peacemaking, poverty-fighting, medical, etc.), become a writer or novelist (because your writing and reading skills as well as your general understanding of the English language improves dramatically) or heck even become part of the Chaser team, haha!
Compare this with med or engineering where you have to become a doctor or engineer respectively. You can specialise in med and eng but you can also specialise in a particular area of law. I didn't know (and still don't know 100%) in which field I want to work for the rest of my life and saw law as a degree with a wide range of career opportunities.
Doing it for money shouldn't always be seen as selfish or greedy however. Yes quite often it is but financial security is very important for every individual. I know of somebody who has a PhD. in astronomy but can't get a job in astronomy. Life isn't so great that you can make a living from your strongest passions. Lawyers and possessing legal knowledge will always be in high demand so you should always be able to feed your family. Okay, we live in a first-world country with a decent level of government support but we can never take it for granted.
Compare this with med or engineering where you have to become a doctor or engineer respectively. You can specialise in med and eng but you can also specialise in a particular area of law. I didn't know (and still don't know 100%) in which field I want to work for the rest of my life and saw law as a degree with a wide range of career opportunities.
Doing it for money shouldn't always be seen as selfish or greedy however. Yes quite often it is but financial security is very important for every individual. I know of somebody who has a PhD. in astronomy but can't get a job in astronomy. Life isn't so great that you can make a living from your strongest passions. Lawyers and possessing legal knowledge will always be in high demand so you should always be able to feed your family. Okay, we live in a first-world country with a decent level of government support but we can never take it for granted.
RogueAcademic
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I agree with what you said. Just want to add one thing, a med degree is a very powerful degree. There are easily other options open to a med graduate if they decide not to become a doctor, such as in consultancy etc. Same with eng as well to a lesser extent.
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I want to try to address the court on international pirate day like a pirate...
<3 Boston Legal
For those who say most don't get into it other than for the money, it would be true for many but keep in mind while the money is nice I know quite a few barristers and solicitors (I work with them) who also do probono work/ donate to lots of charities. One can still be rich and have a social conscious and thats what I plan to do, take on some probono work and make sure I use some of my money to make the world a better place...
Unless I end up so poor I have a 'will litigate for food' sign....
circusmind
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My point about doing something for money/prestige was not a moral one. If you take on a career solely to make money, you may well end up desperately unhappy. It makes a lot more sense to take on something you have a passion for. Everyone takes a job to make money, but I just think that doing law to make a buck is a very misguided decision. An even worse reason is 'prestige'.
The reasons I did law:
- the discipline suits the way I think and study. I am very comfortable with reading lots, and enjoy a 3day uni week.
-I am interested in the law. Particularly public law and public international law. It is a fantastic complement to my Arts degree in Political Science.
-I want to work in public policy/politics/the public sector/journalism. A law degree is a useful asset in all these areas.
neo o
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Personally I think people who do law for the money have been fibbed to. When it comes to graduate salaries and even salaries five to six years PEA you aren't going to earn significantly more than many other graduates unless you're exceptional. For me, money was a factor in figuring out whether I would avoid degrees, because graduate salaries were so far below average that they weren't worth contemplating. Back in 2005 when I started, if I really wanted to earn money I would have done either a commerce degree or a science degree with a major in geology 
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gibbo153
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that was a good post. unbiased, informed. reputation points for you *pats head*
circusmind
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Exactly. There's kids earning hundreds of thousands of dollars driving trucks down mines in W.A while we toil away our youth in the ANU law libraryPersonally I think people who do law for the money have been fibbed to. When it comes to graduate salaries and even salaries five to six years PEA you aren't going to earn significantly more than many other graduates unless you're exceptional. For me, money was a factor in figuring out whether I would avoid degrees, because graduate salaries were so far below average that they weren't contemplating. Back in 2005 when I started, if I really wanted to earn money I would have done either a commerce degree or a science degree with a major in geology
Yeah med and eng degrees are not as restricted as I said. I also admit that law is restricted in a geographical sense unless you specialise in federal or international law. It still seems to provide a lot of variety though.
haha you shit on uws for downgrading a law degree, thats a bit rich for someone who studies law a macquarie.