Do you believe in God? (2 Viewers)

[IamBread]

iron man > thor

! Blasphemy!

 

[Spiritual Being]

Do I believe in god? yes...

Lag was so bad 2000 years ago so it took Jesus 3 days to respawn.

 

[Galapagos]

I'm inclined to say no, but I cannot be 100% sure, just like I can't be 100% sure that fairies don't exist or that Russell's teapot in space doesn't exist or that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist.

As an ex-Christian, I can say that it is very difficult to grasp that God probably doesn't exist. All I wanted to do was grasp on to the ideas that affirmed my beliefs, and I pushed away anything that sounded reasonable but didn't fit with my belief system. 'Cause then I would've looked stupid to everyone I'd told that I believed in God, and in my case, possibly be rejected by the family and my god-fearing friends.

But I got over that when I grew half a brain and realised there is no proof whatsoever that God exists, that if he did exist then he enjoyed screwing around with my life and pretending to not exist (and I don't want to have a relationship with that mind-fucking, "he's just testing me" arsehole), and that I was delusional when I thought I could speak tongues and thought I could hear God in my head and that if anything went "right" in my life it couldn't have been the result of chance, no, it had to be God!

 

[Timske]

Who else feels guilty when they say ' i do not believe in god' yet im compelled to believe that he does not exist...

 

[AAEldar]

I'm inclined to say no, but I cannot be 100% sure, just like I can't be 100% sure that fairies don't exist or that Russell's teapot in space doesn't exist or that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist.

As an ex-Christian, I can say that it is very difficult to grasp that God probably doesn't exist. All I wanted to do was grasp on to the ideas that affirmed my beliefs, and I pushed away anything that sounded reasonable but didn't fit with my belief system. 'Cause then I would've looked stupid to everyone I'd told that I believed in God, and in my case, possibly be rejected by the family and my god-fearing friends.

But I got over that when I grew half a brain and realised there is no proof whatsoever that God exists, that if he did exist then he enjoyed screwing around with my life and pretending to not exist (and I don't want to have a relationship with that mind-fucking, "he's just testing me" arsehole), and that I was delusional when I thought I could speak tongues and thought I could hear God in my head and that if anything went "right" in my life it couldn't have been the result of chance, no, it had to be God!

You seem to be very unsure (but understandable for an ex-Christian). From my understanding though, God doesn't interfere (hence the whole free will argument) but is just 'ever present'. Maybe this will help:

However note that there's no evidence that Aurelius said exactly that (think it's more of a paraphrase from something he did write).

Who else feels guilty when they say ' i do not believe in god' yet im compelled to believe that he does not exist...

Why would you feel guilty about something you don't believe?

 

[Galapagos]

You seem to be very unsure (but understandable for an ex-Christian). From my understanding though, God doesn't interfere (hence the whole free will argument) but is just 'ever present'.
...
Why would you feel guilty about something you don't believe?

I grew up in a Christian church that believed God to be very involved in human life. That's why we prayed so much. The Bible, for example, has tonnes and tonnes of examples of God intervening. Nowadays he/she seems to do nothing. Rather convenient, I think.

...

I feel guilty sometimes because due to my upbringing I am inclined to feel bad if I say anything that defies Christian belief. I used to feel bad if I slipped out an "Oh my God", or if I had a thought, like, say, 'Why would God create evil, especially if he is omnipotent and ever-present and knows everything, including the future, and knows that an Angel will fall from heaven and fuck up his creation?'. And to that I used to quickly retort that that thought was placed in my head by the devil, and therefore I felt guilty for thinking it. - Clearly this way of thinking is entirely irrational, but many, many Christians think like that.

I'm being totally serious, by the way.

 

[soloooooo]

If an afterlife does exist it would be better to go to Heaven than to go to Hell.

 

[Demento1]

I believe that there is some entity out there who created this world and to some extent, I am inclined to believe that there is a God.

 

[ArguablyMitch]

No.

In relation to religious beliefs: believe what you want, go to church/mass/prayer at the local mosque etc...doesn't matter to me. Though having said that, if you feel so inclined that I should believe as you do -say, for instance, that I must be saved or else face eternal punishment- and you feel the need to force it upon me, then we no longer have a mere difference of opinion, but a fight. I won't have it; just as I won't have Creationism taught in the science classroom. Personal beliefs are personal and unless you can provide extraordinary evidence, keep them personal.

 

[AAEldar]

'Why would God create evil, especially if he is omnipotent and ever-present and knows everything, including the future, and knows that an Angel will fall from heaven and fuck up his creation?'. And to that I used to quickly retort that that thought was placed in my head by the devil.

Free will.

If an afterlife does exist it would be better to go to Heaven than to go to Hell.

And if it doesn't.

 

[Galapagos]

Free will.

So you're saying God created evil so us humans would have free will?

I really don't understand why God was so surprised that Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge; a) he know's everything (can't be surprised if you know it's going to happen), b) he punished the REST OF HUMANITY for the actions of 2 mindless humans' inability to judge right and wrong, and c) how is one supposed to know God is right and the Devil is wrong if one doesn't have a true conscience nor any wisdom?

It really just sounds like a set-up, you know. He put's a Tree in the Garden of Eden (why put it there in the first place), says don't eat from this one damn tree - like, it's there, but don't eat it or you're fucked for rest of eternity (doesn't explain why). Serpent/devil comes along and says if you eat from that tree you will be as smart as God (who wouldn't want to be as smart as God?) and nothing bad will happen. Ok, so, Adam and Eve don't have wisdom, they don't have morals, they really don't have anything other than the primal instinct to eat and sleep and all the other basic survival mechanisms. They eat from the tree. Wow, big surprise considering they really don't know who is telling the truth because they don't have a conscience.

Out comes God, all like "Where are you, stupid, animal-like humans? Why are you hiding from me?". He finds them, and is like "You ate from the tree I told you not to eat from, I'm going to punish you forever for doing something you really didn't know was wrong in the first place."

...all this so we can have Free will. Really?

It doesn't sound like he wanted us to have free will in the first place because he punished us for attaining it.

Income Christian response: God works in mysterious ways...

 

[soloooooo]

Free will.



And if it doesn't.

If it doesn't I am no worse off.

 

[AAEldar]

So you're saying God created evil so us humans would have free will?

I really don't understand why God was so surprised that Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge; a) he know's everything (can't be surprised if you know it's going to happen), b) he punished the REST OF HUMANITY for the actions of 2 mindless humans' inability to judge right and wrong, and c) how is one supposed to know God is right and the Devil is wrong if one doesn't have a true conscience nor any wisdom?

It really just sounds like a set-up, you know. He put's a Tree in the Garden of Eden (why put it there in the first place), says don't eat from this one damn tree - like, it's there, but don't eat it or you're fucked for rest of eternity (doesn't explain why). Serpent/devil comes along and says if you eat from that tree you will be as smart as God (who wouldn't want to be as smart as God?) and nothing bad will happen. Ok, so, Adam and Eve don't have wisdom, they don't have morals, they really don't have anything other than the primal instinct to eat and sleep and all the other basic survival mechanisms. They eat from the tree. Wow, big surprise considering they really don't know who is telling the truth because they don't have a conscience.

Out comes God, all like "Where are you, stupid, animal-like humans? Why are you hiding from me?". He finds them, and is like "You ate from the tree I told you not to eat from, I'm going to punish you forever for doing something you really didn't know was wrong in the first place."

...all this so we can have Free will. Really?

Haha was not expecting a reply like this. Firstly let me say that I am not religious at all - I don't think there is any God.

Was just trying to assert what a Christian would say. Of course it was set-up, that seems to have been the point. Had they not eaten from it then all would have been great but I think it's the fact that they didn't trust God that makes it what it is. Christian's all trust and believe in the righteousness of God and what have you because they've 'seen' what God can do (through the scripture).

On the animal-like humans though - I do find Ecclesiastes a good read in that it seems to go against the idea of a God (my interpretation anyway).

Again, not religious, just interested in the arguments

 

[mirakon]

If it doesn't I am no worse off.

Pascal's Wager is rather flawed tbh

 

[Galapagos]

Haha was not expecting a reply like this. Firstly let me say that I am not religious at all - I don't think there is any God.

Was just trying to assert what a Christian would say. Of course it was set-up, that seems to have been the point. Had they not eaten from it then all would have been great but I think it's the fact that they didn't trust God that makes it what it is. Christian's all trust and believe in the righteousness of God and what have you because they've 'seen' what God can do (through the scripture).

On the animal-like humans though - I do find Ecclesiastes a good read in that it seems to go against the idea of a God (my interpretation anyway).

Again, not religious, just interested in the arguments

Lol. It's cool.

Ecclesiastes...yeah, just like the rest of Christianity we, as free-thinking rational agnostic atheists should just ignore it. Cuz it's in the Bible, but nah, it doesn't count. It doesn't sound at all like what we think God is really like, despite being in the Bible!

I'm interested in the arguments too. But only the ones that have decent reasoning behind them (Of which I am still waiting for pro-God existence arguments).

 

[mirakon]

Does God HAVE to be benevolent?

I think benevolence is a rather subjective concept and assuming a God exists, why should his benevolence be equivalent to your interpretation or my interpretation?

In fact, why would he have to be benevolent at all?

 

[Galapagos]

If it doesn't I am no worse off.

Disagree - I'd rather spend my "after-life" in the ground nourishing an apple tree that people won't be punished for eating from, than say, endlessly worshipping God in Heaven...he has such a massive Ego.

 

[Annihilist]

If an afterlife does exist it would be better to go to Heaven than to go to Hell.

Why does the afterlife have to be Heaven or Hell? An afterlife could just be...well, anything. Reincarnation, even. You are using Pascal's argument that if there happens to be a God, it is best to believe in him just in case, to cover our bases so we don't end up in Hell after we die. Which I think is not only ludicrous and nonsensical but also stupid, because it promotes sacrificing your own happiness and fulfilment in this live for the sake of a CHANCE of eternal bliss in Heaven, and to avoid damnation in Hell.

In the context of Christianity I am closer to Luciferian; I believe we should be our own God, and follow our own commandments. And if my version of a possible Hell is correct, then Heaven would be a boring fucking place, full of all the "righteous" believers, and all the bullshit artists who lied to themselves so they can go to Heaven. Hell, on the other hand, the way I see it, would be awesome, because Satan encourages following yourself and believing in yourself, and following your desires and doing what you want with your life. Given he defied God as well, it doesn't make sense that he would punish us for following in his footsteps, inadvertently or otherwise. He should praise us. And it would be full of the honest folk who thought for themselves and decided what they wanted to believe, instead of following a dogma which has been shoved down their throats by their church or pastor or whatever.

Satan was the one who encouraged Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge - a parable. He was the one who encouraged questioning and defying authority, to seek out knowledge and wisdom for yourself instead of accepting what you are told without question. To find your own way of life instead of becoming just another sheep in the flock.

If it doesn't I am no worse off.

Again, the Pascal argument. You have just wasted your life in dedication to God, just in case He exists and Heaven exists. And when you die and it turns out he doesn't (which was the hypothetical in question), how are you going to feel? You've just wasted your entire life praising God who turned out not to exist. Imagine what you could have done with your life if you didn't. If you lived life by your own rules and values. If you did what you wanted, and not what God wanted.

 

[funkshen]

Does God HAVE to be benevolent?

I think benevolence is a rather subjective concept and assuming a God exists, why should his benevolence be equivalent to your interpretation or my interpretation?

In fact, why would he have to be benevolent at all?

apologists and rationalists believe that we can use our cognitive faculties, empirical evidence and the scripture to determine, or at least grasp at, what is 'good', and thus benevolence, and thus god's will

 

[Absolutezero]

Again, the Pascal argument. You have just wasted your life in dedication to God, just in case He exists and Heaven exists. And when you die and it turns out he doesn't (which was the hypothetical in question), how are you going to feel? You've just wasted your entire life praising God who turned out not to exist. Imagine what you could have done with your life if you didn't. If you lived life by your own rules and values. If you did what you wanted, and not what God wanted.

More to the point, Pascal ignores the fact that you may have picked the wrong God. To quote Homer Simpson: "Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder""