Does God exist? (28 Viewers)

[braintic]

Well the Quran is such that in a simple 10 word chapter its has 40 literary devices so i guess you can consider it to have crazy literary value It's just part of the miracle of it...

Miracle?? - Are you claiming that the quran is the most amazing piece of literature ever? Some people swallow their indoctrination easier than others.

 

[Drsoccerball]

Miracle?? - Are you claiming that the quran is the most amazing piece of literature ever? Some people swallow their indoctrination easier than others.

I am claiming that nothing equals the Quran in Arabic literature. Of course if you translate it, it loses nearly all of its literary value. If compared in its own language in linguistic characteristics to other texts objectively it is the most amazing... You can say this is subjective but bring me a writer who is able to write 10 words which makes sense and carry 40 linguistic characteristics/techniques. What exemplifies this miracle is that the prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was an ummi(illiterate prophet) he couldn't read nor could he write. The Quran has given the challenge.
"Or do they say [about the Prophet], "He invented it?" Say, "Then bring forth a surah like it and call upon [for assistance] whomever you can besides Allah , if you should be truthful." 10:38
People have been actively trying and have never been able to produce anything of the similitude of the Quran. Even when the Arabic language was at its peak no one could produce something like it or as great as it.

 

[dan964]

http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbworld.aspx?pageid=8589953023
this site obviously is not an Islamic site but a christian one, but it is an argument against the above statement.

There are probably secular arguments, but this is just the first one that popped up.

 

[Drsoccerball]

"According to the Qur’an, any one of these four Surahs is beyond anything that could be written by mere human beings. But let’s be honest. Is there anything miraculous here? Is there something so incredibly unique in these passages that unbelievers should confess that we are confronted with the very words of God? No, there isn’t. These are words that could have been written by just about anyone. In fact, the most unique thing about these passages is that they are extraordinarily unimpressive (considering what is being claimed about them)"

Like I said translating something removes basically all of its literary value. If you were to translate a soliloquy in Hamlet for example it would lose effects such as : Iambic pentameter, onomatopoeia, assonance, alliteration, Sibilance etc... This 10 words you claim as "unimpressive"" in the language produce 40 literary techniques which are all removed if you read the translation... Languages such as Arabic and Turkish are not straight word for word translations. If done word by word it will not make sense. For example bu odada kac kisi var? If you translate that word by word from turkish to english it will be ""this room how many people are?" and the words used are completely different. The argument is not false.

By translating something it doesn't reduce its meaning but reduces its literary value.

these people who challenged the Quran lost they made these claims that they did but they didn't. For example one guy spoke about how elephants have trunks and something about frogs... The people laughed and turned it down as it was no where near the quran...

My claim is not saying that the meaning from the translation changes but rather the litterary devices change.

A contemporary poem/ tongue twister as an example :

How many boards
Could the Mongols hoard
If the Mongol hordes got bored?

In Turkish :
Kaç panoları
Moğollar istif Could
Moğol ordularını sıkıldım Eğer?

Made my point ? ahahah
You always give massive links

 

[dan964]

its God's eternal word its not based on anything.

"The Quran is the central religious text of Islam. Muslims believe that it represents the words of God revealed to Muhammad through the archangel Gabriel"

My first real question is how do you know the angel Gabriel is the one who gave the words of Allah to Mohammed, and that it wasn't something else?

 

[Drsoccerball]

"The Quran is the central religious text of Islam. Muslims believe that it represents the words of God revealed to Muhammad through the archangel Gabriel"

My first real question is how do you know the angel Gabriel is the one who gave the words of Allah to Mohammed, and that it wasn't something else?

Because the prophet(sas) saw the angel jibrel. He said something such as " Ana jibrel wa anta rasolollah" I am Gabriel and you are the messenger of god. I think it was like that from my memory... So It wasn't an assumption that the Quran was revealed by angel Gabriel but it was a knowledge known to the prophet. Since you love quoting websites
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1225&Itemid=137
Inna hu la qaw lu rassoolin karim is the first verse on the page
The first verses revealed to the prophet:
Iqrah bismi rabikallathi khallaq
Khallaqal insana min alaq
Iqrah wa rabokal akram
Alathi alama bil qalam
The prophet explains that he was embraced hardly saying "Read!" and he replied "I am not learned" So the angel squeesed tighter saying "Read!" and he said it again and the prophet repeated the verses "Iqrah" means read/recite btw...
This is actually a prophecy fulfilled in your bible..
"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned." Isaiah 29:12
I ask you who in your bible when the message was revealed to them saying read said" I can't read" ?
That was just some extra information i wanted to share

A parable could be such that the King is so majestic that he puts a veil infront of his people sending messengers into the towns to relay the message of the king. Its not "the king needs the messengers" but rather they're a veil.

Similarly, angels are a veil and thus are relaying the messages to the prophets from God. Therefore if the scripture given to the prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is true which i believe it is then that would indirectly show that the angel gabriel gave the message to the messenger. The best of angels passes the message onto the best of messengers...

 

[dan964]

That is a big case of taking something out of context, I find incredibly bad when we base evidence on single verses in the Bible (understand this, originally the Bible did not have chapters or verses). Thus I disagree with your conclusions.

The Claim:

In Isaiah 29:12 we find the verse

Or if you give the scroll to someone who cannot read,
and say, "Read this, please,"
he will answer, "I don't know how to read."
and there are Muslims who claim that this is a prediction of Muhammad, and his first experience in the cave on Mt. Hira where Gabriel supposedly pressured him to read, but he could not.

Summary:

However, looking into the context of this verse will make clear that this is a complete misinterpretation. There is no prediction of a future prophet in this passage. In the contrary Isaiah 29 is a chapter of announcing punishment on Israel.

Context:

The chapter reads (from v3):

I will encamp against you all around;
I will encircle you with towers
and set up my siege works against you.
Brought low, you will speak from the ground;
your speech will mumble out of the dust.
Your voice will come ghostlike from the earth;
out of the dust your speech will whisper.

<1>As part of the punishment we read that God will also take away the ability to read (understand) the holy word because they have disobeyed it for so long. In particular, verse 10 states clearly that the prophets and seers themselves will be put to sleep and no longer receive revelation from the LORD.

Be stunned and amazed, blind yourselves and be sightless;
be drunk, but not from wine, stagger, but not from beer.
The LORD has brought over you a deep sleep:
He has sealed your eyes, the prophets;
he has covered your heads, the seers.
For you this whole vision is nothing but words sealed in a scroll.
And if you give the scroll to someone who can read, and say to him,
"Read this, please," he will answer, "I can't; it is sealed."
Or if you give the scroll to someone who cannot read, and say,
"Read this, please," he will answer, "I don't know how to read."
The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth
and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.

<2> Would Muslims really want to say that this refers to Muhammad? The heart far from God, with worship that is not according to God's will but according to what men have invented (v.13) and that his inability to read is part of God's punishment? It is a sign of God putting a deep sleep on the people regarding spiritual matters, so that regardless how knowledgeable they are, they would nevertheless be unable to read (comprehend) what the word of God means.

Conclusion of the matter, your proof I find is adequate. Christians may I add also believe that there is no need for a veil as Apostle Paul says:

"We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in [Jesus] Christ is it taken away."

It is quite clear that Muslims and Christians do not agree.

 

[Drsoccerball]

That is a big case of taking something out of context, I find incredibly bad when we base evidence on single verses in the Bible (understand this, originally the Bible did not have chapters or verses). Thus I disagree with your conclusions.

The Claim:


Summary:


Context:


Conclusion of the matter, your proof I find is adequate. Christians may I add also believe that there is no need for a veil as Apostle Paul says:

"We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in [Jesus] Christ is it taken away."

It is quite clear that Muslims and Christians do not agree.

I have two questions one ill ask later
If you saw jesus in the street today with his thick beard which religion do you think he belongs to? When jesus prayed on his face im asking you who prays on their faces today? He fasted for 40 days who today fasts continously today? He was circumsized which religious group folow that practice? He didnt eat pig which religious group doesnt eat pig? So if jesus(pbuh) was here in this current time doing all of these which religious group do yoh reckon he would suit more by his actions? Christianity or Islam?
Btw: How many verses of the bible have you memorised in the original language? I only know 150 verses in arabic D:

 

[BLIT2014]

I have two questions one ill ask later
If you saw jesus in the street today with his thick beard which religion do you think he belongs to? When jesus prayed on his face im asking you who prays on their faces today? He fasted for 40 days who today fasts continously today? He was circumsized which religious group folow that practice? He didnt eat pig which religious group doesnt eat pig? So if jesus(pbuh) was here in this current time doing all of these which religious group do yoh reckon he would suit more by his actions? Christianity or Islam?
Btw: How many verses of the bible have you memorised in the original language? I only know 150 verses in arabic D:

Jews don't eat pork, and often get circumcised too.

 

[dan964]

Btw: How many verses of the bible have you memorised in the original language? I only know 150 verses in arabic D:

I don't know what kind of argument this is. (Please note: Assuming intellectual superiority is not an argument for Islam, I don't know the Quran well or even at all, and I don't claim to. All I know is it denies certain teachings of Jesus which I will address in response to your other question. But if I wanted to, I could try to memorise the Bible in Hebrew and Greek, but there is no need. The Bible can be in any language and still have the same effect as the original text would. Obviously when they translate it they have to go back to the original language which is mostly Hebrew for the Old Testament and mostly Greek for the New Testament.

I have two questions one ill ask later
If you saw jesus in the street today with his thick beard which religion do you think he belongs to? When jesus prayed on his face im asking you who prays on their faces today? He fasted for 40 days who today fasts continously today? He was circumsized which religious group folow that practice? He didnt eat pig which religious group doesnt eat pig? So if jesus(pbuh) was here in this current time doing all of these which religious group do yoh reckon he would suit more by his actions? Christianity or Islam?

In reply to your other question, Blit2014 already implied the answer. Jesus was a Jew not a Muslim.*

*in sense of adherant to the religion of Islam as understood today (or even 1400 years ago).

Christianity in short is based on Jesus and how he is the fulfillment of the law (hence why Christians can eat pork and can get circumcised).
So he was a Jew, but he fulfilled the Jewish law (which is why he had to die on the cross and rise again 3 days later which Jesus himself said he had to do). Christianity is also based strongly on Judaism - in fact the first Christians (in terms of name) were in fact Jews.

In answer to question, Jesus would actually suit Judaism (classic not modern), and Christianity (of which, arguably*, he was the founder of; but is at least the basis for)

But Jesus will not suit Islam, even if Islam has those two teachings the same, because

[1] It misunderstands that Jesus fulfilled the law* as mentioned (this is why also Jews & Gentiles can also be Christians without need for physical circumcision or strict food laws)
*through life, death and resurrection.
[2] Jesus (several times) in the Gospel*, in fact predicted his betrayal, death and resurrection, and since Islam denies all three; in addition to Jesus describing how he was sent by the Father (also denied to some degree in Islam), Jesus cannot suit Islam.
[3] Jesus said that he is the only way to God (John 14:6)

In conclusion, Islam re-interprets Jesus' teaching and purpose* to fit the Quran.
*particularly within relation to #2

So how does Islam get around this or how do other religions (e.g. Hinduism), is that they redefine Jesus through the lens of their religion. I am not saying that is necessarily right/wrong, but if consider Jesus from the account of the Gospels to be true or at least accurate, he cannot possibly be an adherant to Islamic religion.

So Islam is more consistent to conclude that the Gospel is wrong about Jesus and I think it already does:
"Muslims believe that the four canonical gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and lost Gospels, such as that of Peter, contain fragments of Jesus' message, but that the majority of the original teaching has been altered or lost."

 

[dan964]

To be honest, this is getting nowhere.
Lets just conclude with this:
Islam & Christians don't agree on Jesus, because they disagree on the 'truthfulness' of the Gospel.

 

[Drsoccerball]

To be honest, this is getting nowhere.
Lets just conclude with this:
Islam & Christians don't agree on Jesus, because they disagree on the 'truthfulness' of the Gospel.

It wasn't an argument i just wanted to know how many you know..
By the way Jesus was a muslim
He said something that he submitted the will to the father... Anyone who submits their will to God is a Muslim since Muslim means one who submits

 

[SylviaB]

hahahahahaha

 

[SylviaB]

Anyone who submits their will to God is a Muslim since Muslim means one who submits

are you fucking serious right now

 

[Drsoccerball]

are you fucking serious right now

m8 stop with the swearing... and yes im serious

 

[Drsoccerball]

hahahahahaha

The word translated as days in the translation is ayam. Which means a period of time...So 6 stages/ period of time translating it as day isnt right...
Thus the heavens and the Earth were not created in 6 days but only 6 periods of time...
Because what is a day? How do we even define a day? Dictionary: each of the twenty-four-hour periods, reckoned from one midnight to the next, into which a week, month, or year is divided, and corresponding to a rotation of the earth on its axis.
so thus how could it be a day when the sun and moon weren't created? It means stages/ periods of time

How much of a miracle would it be if he took a plane... They do extraordinary things to show that they are in fact messengers from god... So they do miracles such as splitting the moon...

 

[Drsoccerball]

Jews don't eat pork, and often get circumcised too.

But how about you christians?

 

[dan964]

It wasn't an argument i just wanted to know how many you know..
By the way Jesus was a muslim
He said something that he submitted the will to the father... Anyone who submits their will to God is a muslim since Muslim means one who submits

muslim with a lowercase 'm' not Muslim with a capital 'M', which implies an adherant to Islam/Quranic teaching.

Just as you can call some orthodox or catholic who isn't Catholic (Roman Catholic) or Orthodox (Eastern Orthodox).

 

[dan964]

But how about you christians?

In summary, Jesus fulfilled the law and thus it is no longer a requirement.
see http://www.gotquestions.org/foods.html for a more detailed explanation.

 

[Drsoccerball]

In summary, Jesus fulfilled the law and thus it is no longer a requirement.
see http://www.gotquestions.org/foods.html for a more detailed explanation.

From my observations does that mean you guys arnt following what he did?