Does God exist? (20 Viewers)

[Simorgh]

Wasn't there a time when the scientific and societal progress of the Middle East was further along than the West? Too bad that didn't lead anywhere and the West caught up.

Yep. While Europe was still clogged in a feudalistic and medieval society, the Islamic world was making strong progress and developments in the Sciences, Medicine, Maths, Philosophy and so much more. Reasons for the decline included the Crusades, Christian conquest of Islamic Spain and Portugal, Mongol sack of the Middle East which included Baghdad back then which was then intellectual capital of the world and had hundreds of libraries. So much knowledge and literature was lost, but luckily much of it was copied down and was spread from Baghdad to Constantinople, Alexandria to Cordoba to other places in the Muslim world and from there passed on to Europe, which led to the Renaissance.

 

[FlyingKanga]

I'm just curious. What is an atheist's view of the initial manifestation of the universe? They tell us about the singularity starting everything but what was there before the singularity and how did it come about? At the moment, I believe that God is a being which transcends the concepts of infinity and formed a finite universe which we are currently within.

 

[Paradoxica]

I'm just curious. What is an atheist's view of the initial manifestation of the universe? They tell us about the singularity starting everything but what was there before the singularity and how did it come about? At the moment, I believe that God is a being which transcends the concepts of infinity and formed a finite universe which we are currently within.

The question is meaningless, as time and space did not exist before the big bang.

On a more metaphysical level, believe whatever the hell you want, I'm not stopping you.

 

[dan964]

Yep. While Europe was still clogged in a feudalistic and medieval society, the Islamic world was making strong progress and developments in the Sciences, Medicine, Maths, Philosophy and so much more. Reasons for the decline included the Crusades, Christian conquest of Islamic Spain and Portugal, Mongol sack of the Middle East which included Baghdad back then which was then intellectual capital of the world and had hundreds of libraries. So much knowledge and literature was lost, but luckily much of it was copied down and was spread from Baghdad to Constantinople, Alexandria to Cordoba to other places in the Muslim world and from there passed on to Europe, which led to the Renaissance.

Although I don't agree with it, I think the conquest of Islamic Spain, was in response to the Islamic conquest of Spain. But yeah, especially with places like Iraq and that were very intellectual during the dark ages.

 

[renogademx]

you are pathetic losers.
Think of all the things you could do in the time you write paragraphs arguing about religion.
Get a fucking life.

Nobody gives a shit about your opinion. Go back to eating Doritos and drinking mountain dew.

 

[Simorgh]

Although I don't agree with it, I think the conquest of Islamic Spain, was in response to the Islamic conquest of Spain. But yeah, especially with places like Iraq and that were very intellectual during the dark ages.

Islamic Conquest happened 800 years prior to the Inquisition and Reconquista..

Excuse me 800 years of Islamic civilisation and history wiped entirely out by the Spanish/Portuguese inquisition against Non-Catholics which included mostly Jews and Muslims who were tortured and forced to convert or leave entirely. A very intellectual and advanced society, unlike the rest of Europe which was entirely backward. At least 80% of the population in the Iberian Peninsula were Muslims of Iberian descent not Arab descent from around 1100, just before the Reconquista and Inquisition came into play. Read the history mate instead of making assumptions.

Almeria, Lisbon, Córdoba, Seville, Granada and Malaga were all historical Islamic cities in the Iberian Peninsula.

 

[FlyingKanga]

The question is meaningless, as time and space did not exist before the big bang.

On a more metaphysical level, believe whatever the hell you want, I'm not stopping you.

If it didn't exist before, how did it come about?

 

[dan964]

If it didn't exist before, how did it come about?

they aren't concerned with the answer of that question.

 

[dan964]

Islamic Conquest happened 800 years prior to the Inquisition and Reconquista..

Excuse me 800 years of Islamic civilisation and history wiped entirely out by the Spanish/Portuguese inquisition against Non-Catholics which included mostly Jews and Muslims who were tortured and forced to convert or leave entirely. A very intellectual and advanced society, unlike the rest of Europe which was entirely backward. At least 80% of the population in the Iberian Peninsula were Muslims of Iberian descent not Arab descent from around 1100, just before the Reconquista and Inquisition came into play. Read the history mate instead of making assumptions.

Almeria, Lisbon, Córdoba, Seville, Granada and Malaga were all historical Islamic cities in the Iberian Peninsula.

Excuse you indeed, no assumptions made...
711AD is the approximate year of the first (but not final conquest in Spain) by Islamic forces, within 80 years of the death of Mohammed (632 AD). "After this eight-year campaign, Muslim forces attempted to move north-east across the Pyrenees Mountains toward France, but were defeated by the Frankish Christian Charles Martel at the Battle of Tours in 732."

"Several historical sources state that the Islamic caliphate had not actually targeted Spain for conquest, but that political divisions within the Visigothic kingdom created an opportunity that Tariq and his army exploited successfully."

The decline of this society began in 1130*, long before the Inquisition of 1478. The Inquisition marked the end of Islamic Spain if you like it in 1492, with the capture of Granada. *yes the Reconquesta.

Firstly, it could be said hardly 800 years. Islamic rule lasted about 300 (lets be generous and say 400**) for Spain over all the region and only in Granada is your figure close with 770-781 years.

But yes your figure can work also if you say Islam leadership was present in Spain from 711 to around 1614.

But I think the main thing is resistance began a lot earlier. But it is one of those hot topics of history. (** consider that Islamic rule in NW Spain lasted only 28 years, and 770-781 in the far SE of the region)

Scholarship disputes the peaceful coexistence of different faiths within this Islamic era in Spain.

But yes it is a very interesting segment of history, that is highly debated. This BBC article is my main reference starting point for the moment...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/spain_1.shtml

"Christian" aggression and "Islamic" divisions (internally) both led to the fall of Islamic Spain as you would call it. And hence after that began the Inquisition. I don't think the Inquisition is excusable; but that's politics/war for you though.

===
Summary:
My point is not to justify the Inquisition and all that, but that it was all a story of warfare, and from the very beginning with the conquest of 711 AD, it was opposed somewhat from the very beginning. The "golden age", stability of that period, is hotly contested as well, and has been studied by many.

I have found that with both of the world's largest religions, and possibly Judaism/Zoroastrianism especially from the time of Constantine to the time post-Reformation/Enlightenment, there was an unfortunate connection between politics and religion, so much so that political conquest was equated with the conquest of God/Allah etc.

 

[dan964]

...What is really problematic nowadays, and it is showing especially in the US, and the far-right, even in Australia; is a reaction of "Christian aggression" to "Islamic aggression" a repeat of history from the 7-14th Centuries, and yes it is very concerning. And both are also being fuelled in different ways. It is also a reaction also to the "progressive passive aggresivism" in some social justice movements as well.

The whole thing is incredibly messy...

 

[BLIT2014]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/002/116/Longcat_War.jpg

Cats are godlike right?

 

[braintic]

I have found that with both of the world's largest religions, and possibly Judaism/Zoroastrianism especially from the time of Constantine to the time post-Reformation/Enlightenment, there was an unfortunate connection between politics and religion, so much so that political conquest was equated with the conquest of God/Allah etc.

And that is my main issue with religion. That it is such an easy tool for despots to employ to gain control over the unthinking ovine masses.

And it will always be so.

 

[Drsoccerball]

And that is my main issue with religion. That it is such an easy tool for despots to employ to gain control over the unthinking ovine masses.

And it will always be so.

"Believers cannot serve their cause through politics in such stormy circumstances. Whatever service is rendered for Islam through politics eventually benefits the dominant anti-Islamic system, because foreign powers control the reins of political life. Engaging in politics also divides Muslims into opposing factions that have a negative impact upon individual hearts and collective life - some people are so obstinate that even Muslims may label angelic brothers or sisters as Satans, or a satanic party member as an angel, depending upon whether or not they support a certain political party. When I saw a learned man severely reproach a good, virtuous man who did not share his political views and then praise a corrupt member of his political faction, I became dismayed by the evils of politics and completely withdrew, saying "I take refuge in God from Satan and politics." "

 

[dan964]

And that is my main issue with religion. That it is such an easy tool for despots to employ to gain control over the unthinking ovine masses.

And it will always be so.

Yeah I don't disagree entirely. But only 7% (4% Islam, 3% other) are the causes of wars. Atheism itself, especially if you take Darwin himself said what he believed is an equally dangerous tool:

The full title of Darwin's book in 1859 was On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life. He followed this up more explicitly in his later book The Descent of Man as follows..
"The western nations of Europe ... now so immeasurably surpass their former savage progenitors [that they] stand at the summit of civilisation ... The civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace the savage races through the world. (Vol II, pp. 796-797)

I hardly think that it is an issue that is limited to religion; atheism can be very much "dogmatic" and ideological as much as religious thought, the only difference is the absence of God in atheism. I would argue that atheism has its own belief/value system, quite possibly in the lack/antithesis thereof, or in opposition.

 

[dan964]

"Believers cannot serve their cause through politics in such stormy circumstances. Whatever service is rendered for Islam through politics eventually benefits the dominant anti-Islamic system, because foreign powers control the reins of political life. Engaging in politics also divides Muslims into opposing factions that have a negative impact upon individual hearts and collective life - some people are so obstinate that even Muslims may label angelic brothers or sisters as Satans, or a satanic party member as an angel, depending upon whether or not they support a certain political party. When I saw a learned man severely reproach a good, virtuous man who did not share his political views and then praise a corrupt member of his political faction, I became dismayed by the evils of politics and completely withdrew, saying "I take refuge in God from Satan and politics." "

It doesn't help that within Islam, the major division between the two factions (Sunni & Shia) was related who would succeed Mohammed, politically.

 

[Spiritual Being]

just here for my daily appearance!

lol

 

[Drsoccerball]

It doesn't help that within Islam, the major division between the two factions (Sunni & Shia) was related who would succeed Mohammed, politically.

It's a religious leader not a political leader...

 

[Paradoxica]

It's a religious leader not a political leader...

He's talking about the sociological aspects of the situation.

Religion is tied in with sociology on many levels.

 

[Drsoccerball]

It doesn't help that within Islam, the major division between the two factions (Sunni & Shia) was related who would succeed Mohammed, politically.

Also :

"Those who have made divisions in their religion(whereas they must accept it in its totality), and have been divided into different parties - you have nothing to do with them. Their case rests with God, and then He will make them understand what they were doing, (and call them to account)." 6:159

 

[dan964]

Also :

"Those who have made divisions in their religion(whereas they must accept it in its totality), and have been divided into different parties - you have nothing to do with them. Their case rests with God, and then He will make them understand what they were doing, (and call them to account)." 6:159

I get the suggestion that is underlying... My point was not on religious factions, even though they are concerning; which every religion/non-religion even Islam has. (Yes God will bring to account the false teachers)

Mohammed was more than just the religious leader was my point... and so the argument over who would be his successor, while primarily had to do with religion; it has implications for political conflict. Islam as a religion has always been tied in with politics, in most cases.

It is just an interesting to note, that this same conflict still causes a lot of bitter tension in the middle east; politically.
(That is not saying the same doesn't happen in other religions; same happened around the time of the Reformation with the Counter Reformation and all that).

The conclusion is people have used religion for their political gain. Whether they actually held to that religion, is disputable. But everyone knows of the common examples...