Abortion debate (2 Viewers)

[ogmzergrush]

I work extensively with men's rights groups, including Dads on the Air (from which the statistic of 60% comes). A glimpse at their forums (http://forum.dadsontheair.com/) would be enough to tell you that men Don't get a say in their children's upbringings if their partners/former partners don't want them to.

As I said before, those arguments don't represent my personal views on the argument (I believe both parents should contribute as much as they can, if not voluntarily then by legislation guaranteeing them both equal rights and responsibility)- but they are arguments which I believe would contribute strongly to the debate, in that they raise points that a father's involvement in his child's life is not presumed, but at the mercy of the mother, and that unlike the mother he does not have the ability to divorce himself from his responsibilities.

Out of interest, while you're working with said men's rights groups, do you explain to them that if they didn't want to deal with the consequences of having a baby, or if they weren't sure that their relationship would last long enough to bring it up, then they really shouldn't be having sex? Surely abstinence is the solution to these issues.

Edit: and agreed on erawamai's point. Of the divorced couples I know, most have been instances where the husband splits for greener pastures and disowns his family. Of course this doesn't represent the entire situation, but these same people when asked tend to (Again, in my experience), paint themselves as quite the victims. It's very easy for anyone to talk about the fact that their wallet is raped for the benefit of a family they have nothing to do with, but I wonder how often the same people rant about the fact that they single-handedly destroyed their family.

 

[katie_tully]

If he doesn't, I will.

 

[Phanatical]

Of course it's a delicate situation. But what are people here advocating? Presumptions that the mother must have carte blanche power? I don't see anybody else here even considering the other side of the argument. A good decision comes from weighing up the consequences of different paths of action - and it's clear that nobody else here wants to even consider alternative viewpoints.

When I'm working with men's groups, I acknowledge and They acknowledge that they didn't consider their actions fully. But I'll put it to you that they would rather have their child with their loving fathers, than not having their children at all. The solution is not to say "My daughter hates me, so I wish she was never born". The point isn't that they shouldn't have conceived in the first place - but that they didn't have the opportunity to abort the child, and thus abort their responsibilities to it. Whether or not the father would have done so if he could is as irrelevant to this particular scenario as whether they should have conceived in the first place.

Let's also never forget that all these father's rights you're all speaking of ONLY EXIST BECAUSE THE MOTHER GRANTS THEM. If the mother decides that she doesn't want the father involved in their child's life, the law protects that position, and the father will have an ADVO preventing him from contacting his child within a week. These sorts of arguments should not form a stance in itself - but should rather influence and colour your own positions on the issue, so that if you had to create a definitive position on what Australia should do regarding the debate, your solution addresses these sorts of problems.

 

[katie_tully]

I don't see anybody else here even considering the other side of the argument

May I suggest you remove your head from your arse and open your eyes then?

 

[ogmzergrush]

Of course it's a delicate situation. But what are people here advocating? Presumptions that the mother must have carte blanche power? I don't see anybody else here even considering the other side of the argument. A good decision comes from weighing up the consequences of different paths of action - and it's clear that nobody else here wants to even consider alternative viewpoints.

I advocate abstinence in all cases, unless there's a contractual agreement that the couple will stay together for the duration of the child's upbringing. Normally I'm all for the alternative viewpoints, but in this case we're talking about murdering unborn babies, so I have to take the hardline.

 

[katie_tully]

When I read the term "murdering babies" I equate it with burying 3 month olds in the back yard, not aborting a feotus.

 

[ogmzergrush]

When I read the term "murdering babies" I equate it with burying 3 month olds in the back yard, not aborting a feotus.

Infanticide doesn't even come to mind for me anymore, the phrase just conjures up images of preaching morons seeking to convince people of their argument without *actually* saying anything terribly worthwhile.

 

[Phanatical]

And I think that both are the same.

 

[erawamai]

And I think that both are the same.

Do you aknowledge birth phanatical? It seems you prefer not to acknowledge the word.

 

[davin]

No, fathers shouldn't have sex till they're ready to have babies, and they should be able to deal with the consequences of their actions, now there's a catchcry that sounds familiar!

sounds good to me. just seems, if the woman can get out of having to have the kid via abortion....the guy should have a way out where he doesn't have to pay, but he also gets no claim to custody ever.

and i should add that my views of how gov't should deal with it is drastically different from my moral views on it, i just don't believe in gov't legislating morality. basicly that, were i ever in the situation i'd gotten a girl pregnant, i'd personally do all i could to support her emotionally and financially within my means, no matter which choice she were to make. i just take issue with govt involvement, generally speaking

 

[ur_inner_child]

Do you aknowledge birth phanatical? It seems you prefer not to acknowledge the word.

don't say that, he'll talk about how the baby is alive in the womb, which is beyond the point you're trying to make...

 

[Phanatical]

In many cultures and religions, life begins at conception, and not birth. This happens to be a viewpoint I agree with.

 

[katie_tully]

So this is a religious matter? Has it not been said that religious views of some should not be imposed on others?
It's been said. Damn religious zealots.

 

[Phanatical]

No, I'm an atheist.

 

[katie_tully]

I find it interesting that an atheist would have the same viewpoint as say a Catholic, when it came to conception.

 

[absolution*]

I find it interesting that an atheist would have the same viewpoint as say a Catholic, when it came to conception.

Its only because he hates women.

 

[katie_tully]

That crossed my mind for a moment.

Do you hate women, Phanatical?

 

[Phanatical]

Not at all. Many of my bestest friends are women.

 

[ur_inner_child]

Not at all. Many of my bestest friends are women.

ie some exceptions

 

[absolution*]

I think Phanatical hates all women who judge him on his looks, which is fair enough.