Does God exist? (1 Viewer)

do you believe in god?


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dan964

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See life does seem highly unlikely to occur. I remember reading soo many times how when cooling down even if something almost negligible was different the universe as we know it wouldn’t have existed. With that being said it’s not an objective proof. Objective proof would be for example if God itself came down to Earth or something and spoke to all of humanity or whatever, or if someone from the dead could come back alive and bring evidence of a heaven or what not. Sure how un-probable we are to exist can suggest something external at play but suggesting is not the same as proving. There are soo many things in life that have like a 1 in millions chance of happening and still happen because that’s how probability works.

There’s a wonderful quote which I adore.

“If there are gods and they are just, they will not care about how devout you have been but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods but they are unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no Gods you will be gone but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones” - Marcus Aurelius.

.....
It’s kind of similar to our evolution in knowledge of a black hole. Back in the old days Scientists had many theories regarding why our observations of the galaxy are not consistent with our calculations, there were theories that existed and black holes was one of them. Just like God some people believed it others didn’t and it was just a suggestion/theory. However now we actually have a real photo of a black hole and it matches everything we calculated and observed so that’s an objective proof confirming black holes in fact do exist.
(1) Firstly, why the obsession with 'objective' proof?
There are a lot of things that are given and not necessarily explained by science.
(I would even argue that mathematics should be considered separate field to the empirical methodology of science)

For instance there are 3 types of knowledge:
1. Logic / maths / laws e.g. knowing the rules of chess.
>> This requires reason but more importantly a good starting point (base assumptions/axioms)

2. Science / empirical e.g. knowing that water boils at 100 degrees
>> This requires good measures and instruments;
e.g. I can look at a person and determine how tall they are.

3. Relational e.g. knowing a person.
>> This requires trust in what the person is saying.
e.g. I can know Bob because Bob has told me about his likes/dislikes etc.

As great as maths and science are, they can only determine so much about a person. Sure if God was Russell's teapot, then we would have certainly disproven his existence surely, and there would no believers.

For instance, the origins of information (true or otherwise) are something that cannot be explained by science. (This also includes DNA, morals, and the origins of reason/thoughts); although we can explain how information is transformed, transferred. Even AI (predictive AI) requires information to be fed into it, from an external source (such as a human), and its code is written by humans.

Science starts at a zero point assuming that we don’t know anything about the universe and then seeks evidence and experiments to prove anything we come up with.
(2) It is factually incorrect to say that science starts from a point of zero knowledge and then moves to enlightenment through experiment. Even maths doesn't start from a point of zero knowledge.
Most of science is based on previous knowledge (whether that knowledge is correct or not). Science doesn't start from a blank slate.
Pragmatically, a lot of science is driven by previous predictions/theory or practical applications.

Maths on the hand, is all about the assumptions and setting the rules. This is why maths can sometimes be divorced from science.

Secondly, science operates on assumptions and basis as well as maths.

For example, it assumes that the mechanics of the universe are relatively unchanging (in terms of the physical laws) (or what the Bible refers to 'nothing new under the sun'), which basically is why you can conduct the same experiment several times and get the same conclusions.

(3) Bases for truth
What the black hole example actually was, is that people used their existing knowledge of black holes and calculations to be able to photograph it (there is an episode on Catalyst on ABC that looks in this). All the photo did was confirm existing theory was on the right track, which leads me to these criterion for what is true.

1. Correspondence/consistent - does it fit with all other information?
2. Coherence - is it clear and understandable?
3. Relevance/Pragmatic - is it is useful/liveable?


“If there are gods and they are just, they will not care about how devout you have been but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods but they are unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no Gods you will be gone but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones” - Marcus Aurelius .
There is a lot wrong with this quote (it is like an inverted version of Pascals wager) ,
It assumes that a just God (imposing our warped understanding of just) is a God who doesn't care how faithful we've been (deliberately substitution here). It is like saying that a just ruler doesn't care if its citizens obey the laws of the land; or a Father doesn't care to discipline his children when they show him no respect. If that is the case for these earthly examples, how much more so for one who made the heavens and the earth?

...
 

dan964

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Objective proof would be for example if God itself came down to Earth or something and spoke to all of humanity or whatever, or if someone from the dead could come back alive and bring evidence of a heaven or what not.
> Jesus, if you take him at his word, then there is your objective proof, a man who came down and went to heaven;
AND on top of that who is God incarnate (come down to human flesh).

> Secondly, even if someone came back from the dead or God came down; there is no guarantee that people will listen to you.

27 “The rich man answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.

The point is people don't listen to the words of God (Moses and the Prophets and the Gospel), then they won't even be convinced if someone did come back from the dead with evidence.

The issue is not a lack of evidence, the issue is hard-heartedness (unwilling to believe) and trust issues.
 

dan964

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I’m not sure what it’s called, I’m Christian but just a bit more loose haha.
I don’t agree with the second, I try my best to support other religious beliefs too
If you take the first, then the second logically follows.

Just as it would be wrong/improper for a husband/wife to be unfaithful to their wife/husband in adultery (#7);
Then if there is one God, then it would be wrong/improper to worship other Gods. Hence why no idols.

Besides if you read the 10 Commandments in context, (you will notice, that #2 is the one they break)
"Then the Lord spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice

"You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman... (etc)"

The point is when the 10 Commandments were given, there was no form, but a voice. Something that is clearly repeats.
full text here
 
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dan964

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I am increasing convinced that we'll never be able to prove the existence of God via science and to attempt to do is futile.

(My conclusion at the bottom in blue)

===================================================
Consider these words, from a witness of resurrected Jesus/God (full text here: here)
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.


Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him.

And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling...

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them...

or consider these words from Jesus: (full text: here)
I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours

The point is that God doesn't reveal himself to all men (or to everyone), nor is he a God that is not known by the wisdom of the world, by philosophers.

You can ask for God to give "proof" in the form of miracles / signs. But the issue is that unless that God reveals himself, aye, through the Lord Jesus, then it is a futile exercise. Unless you listen to his words, the gospel (which is about Jesus) then you'll never know him.

Practically, this means in this debate, if you want 'proof' of God existence, then read and weigh up what is his word.

You have to deal with Jesus who not only claimed to have come from God, and gone back to him; but also showed (attested to by witnesses) that he was indeed 'God among us" (or Immanuel), which is something even in our calendars to this day we mark at Christmas.[/ispoiler][/spoiler]
 
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If you take the first, then the second logically follows.

Just as it would be wrong/improper for a husband/wife to be unfaithful to their wife/husband in adultery (#7);
Then if there is one God, then it would be wrong/improper to worship other Gods. Hence why no idols.

Besides if you read the 10 Commandments in context, (you will notice, that #2 is the one they break)
"Then the Lord spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice

"You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman... (etc)"

The point is when the 10 Commandments were given, there was no form, but a voice. Something that is clearly repeats.
full text here
You elaborated on the Commandment much better than I did, in fact.

I am increasing convinced that we'll never be able to prove the existence of God via science and to attempt to do is futile.
A friend of mine once said "If God exists and he is almighty, why would he make it easy for us, or even possible, to prove his existence?"

I spent time thinking about this. For someone who believes in the coexistence of God and science in our world, I believe in some sort of hierarchy/ranking system. That is, if God exists, he would be classified higher than humans, meaning that his existence cannot be proven by anything humanly (e.g. the laws of physics). But that's just a theory.
 

dan964

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You elaborated on the Commandment much better than I did, in fact.



A friend of mine once said "If God exists and he is almighty, why would he make it easy for us, or even possible, to prove his existence?"

I spent time thinking about this. For someone who believes in the coexistence of God and science in our world, I believe in some sort of hierarchy/ranking system. That is, if God exists, he would be classified higher than humans, meaning that his existence cannot be proven by anything humanly (e.g. the laws of physics). But that's just a theory.
Well he is the term is 'holy' - so radically different to us, his 'existence' is not the same as ours.

The point is if God is personal, then the only way would know him truely (beyond saying he is big, powerful and eternal) is if he revealed himself to us (spoke to us), and just as we can refuse to reveal our personal information to someone who is a stranger, so indeed God can reveal to whom he chooses.

why would he make it easy for us, or even possible, to prove his existence?. He wouldn't because that would leave us to boast.
 
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Well he is the term is 'holy' - so radically different to us, his 'existence' is not the same as ours.

The point is if God is personal, then the only way would know him truely (beyond saying he is big, powerful and eternal) is if he revealed himself to us (spoke to us), and just as we can refuse to reveal our personal information to someone who is a stranger, so indeed God can reveal to whom he chooses.

why would he make it easy for us, or even possible, to prove his existence?. He wouldn't because that would leave us to boast.
Absolutely
 

Squar3root

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What don't you agree with the bible on, there is a strong foundation of morals even for non-believers.
Don’t agree with the beginning of the Old Testament when God was killing people for stealing, etc.
Also believe people should be free to have their own sexual preferences/beliefs.
And some of the 10 commandments are Wack haha.
I am increasing convinced that we'll never be able to prove the existence of God via science and to attempt to do is futile.

(My conclusion at the bottom in blue)

===================================================
Consider these words, from a witness of resurrected Jesus/God (full text here: here)
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.


Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him.

And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling...

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them...

or consider these words from Jesus: (full text: here)
I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours

The point is that God doesn't reveal himself to all men (or to everyone), nor is he a God that is not known by the wisdom of the world, by philosophers.

You can ask for God to give "proof" in the form of miracles / signs. But the issue is that unless that God reveals himself, aye, through the Lord Jesus, then it is a futile exercise. Unless you listen to his words, the gospel (which is about Jesus) then you'll never know him.

Practically, this means in this debate, if you want 'proof' of God existence, then read and weigh up what is his word.

You have to deal with Jesus who not only claimed to have come from God, and gone back to him; but also showed (attested to by witnesses) that he was indeed 'God among us" (or Immanuel), which is something even in our calendars to this day we mark at Christmas.[/ispoiler][/spoiler]
but like how do u know the bible/quran/etc is legit? it just seems like through hundreds of years some stuff woulda got lost, or mistranslated. like was there a blockchain of bibles or something? if i was alive during the time, what's stopping me from saying hey this is the bible everyone follow me now? and if so, who wrote it? can we trust them that they wrote it accurately or how can we be sure they didn't have a bias to something? and why are there so many religions based on 1 book? r all gods the same? like what r the differences between jews/muslims/christians if it all comes from the same book?


@speed, when u say "Also believe people should be free to have their own sexual preferences/beliefs." doesn't that kinda go against what ur meant to believe in? cos god says no gays but many people think the same way you do. does that mean religion is just pick and choose what u like? what commitments do u have 2 make? like if someone cheats on their partner but goes to church is that the same as someone who is faithful and never attends church?

@dan964 when u say, there is no point proving by science, yeah that makes sense. so that just come down to blind luck? like why do people choose to believe in a god with circumstantial evidence and not say big foot or ailens?
 
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@speed, when u say "Also believe people should be free to have their own sexual preferences/beliefs." doesn't that kinda go against what ur meant to believe in? cos god says no gays but many people think the same way you do. does that mean religion is just pick and choose what u like?
Yes, Christianity is opposed to homosexuality, so are other Abrahamic religions. It's definitely not a pick and choose scenario. However, I choose not to argue this particular point because I don't want to cause any tension or offend anyone.
 

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Yes, Christianity is opposed to homosexuality, so are other Abrahamic religions. It's definitely not a pick and choose scenario. However, I choose not to argue this particular point because I don't want to cause any tension or offend anyone.
but do you think this makes you a "bad" christian? like when u die and ur judged by god or whatever, will he be like u didn't follow my commandments, go 2 hell?

Also, why would a christian not oppose being a gay? like the beliefs of the religion r homos should not be a thing but then you have gay christians? like is gay christians a troll or just seeking attention?
 
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but do you think this makes you a "bad" christian? like when u die and ur judged by god or whatever, will he be like u didn't follow my commandments, go 2 hell?
Whether or not someone would be sent to hell is another discussion. This is because of the countless divisions in Christianity today relating to the core beliefs. There are concepts such as "Purgatory", which is a place where you are "purified" and made ready to go to heaven, hence judgement is affected by such factors.

Also, why would a christian not oppose being a gay? like the beliefs of the religion r homos should not be a thing but then you have gay christians? like is gay christians a troll or just seeking attention?
Modern Christians think this way because of modern societal influences from groups different to them, particularly in the Western world. These have only become more dominant in recent years, which of course led to the legalisation of same-sex marriage.

I wouldn't label gay Christians as trolls or attention seekers, but rather people who according to their belief system, are not on the right path/are doing something wrong.
 

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Whether or not someone would be sent to hell is another discussion. This is because of the countless divisions in Christianity today relating to the core beliefs. There are concepts such as "Purgatory", which is a place where you are "purified" and made ready to go to heaven, hence judgement is affected by such factors.

Modern Christians think this way because of modern societal influences from groups different to them, particularly in the Western world. These have only become more dominant in recent years, which of course led to the legalisation of same-sex marriage.

I wouldn't label gay Christians as trolls or attention seekers, but rather people who according to their belief system, are not on the right path/are doing something wrong.
oh interesting, didn't know that was a thing

so because beliefs/values/the world is changing, should religion then be irrelevant as those teachings in the bible/etc are now redundant in todays' society?
 

Speed’o’sound Sonic

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I’m personally not opposed to people with different sexual preferences/beliefs e.g. homosexual, transgender, etc. I think that attacking others based on their opinion doesn’t follow Christian values, especially if it doesn’t particularly affect you.
On the other note, I choose not to believe in a Purgatory, mainly due to nature vs nurture where a lot of human action is simply a product of an individual’s surroundings. Although I still think willing destruction of the environment is unjustifiable.
 
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oh interesting, didn't know that was a thing

so because beliefs/values/the world is changing, should religion then be irrelevant as those teachings in the bible/etc are now redundant in todays' society?
Religion can be already considered irrelevant in today's society (since more than 65% of Australian population says religion is unimportant).

Whether religion is redundant/needed is dependent on one's personal choice/decision.
 
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I’m personally not opposed to people with different sexual preferences/beliefs e.g. homosexual, transgender, etc. I think that attacking others based on their opinion doesn’t follow Christian values, especially if it doesn’t particularly affect you.
Absolutely, it is against Chirstian values to attack others based on their opinion. Instead, we should respectfully listen and respond (which is something a lot of people fail to do unfortunately).

It is worth noting that there is a difference between being opposed to a person/group of people and being opposed a particular practice/ideology that person/group may have. Being opposed to a particular opinion doesn't necessarily imply any dislike/hate whoever adopts it. For instance, let's say X likes tattoos and wants to get one, but Y, a close friend of theirs, is against tattoos and is advising X against getting one. If the conversation between the two is respectful and both suggest their respective reasons for their positions, would that imply that Y hates or is attacking X?
 

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Absolutely, it is against Chirstian values to attack others based on their opinion. Instead, we should respectfully listen and respond (which is something a lot of people fail to do unfortunately).

It is worth noting that there is a difference between being opposed to a person/group of people and being opposed a particular practice/ideology that person/group may have. Being opposed to a particular opinion doesn't necessarily imply any dislike/hate whoever adopts it. For instance, let's say X likes tattoos and wants to get one, but Y, a close friend of theirs, is against tattoos and is advising X against getting one. If the conversation between the two is respectful and both suggest their respective reasons for their positions, would that imply that Y hates or is attacking X?
I’m personally not opposed to people with different sexual preferences/beliefs e.g. homosexual, transgender, etc. I think that attacking others based on their opinion doesn’t follow Christian values, especially if it doesn’t particularly affect you.
On the other note, I choose not to believe in a Purgatory, mainly due to nature vs nurture where a lot of human action is simply a product of an individual’s surroundings. Although I still think willing destruction of the environment is unjustifiable.
why value Christian values over Christian values on homosexuality? It's not like the Bible sets weightings to each thing. Why value one higher than the other, when both are stated as values? Is this not preferential bias?
 

Speed’o’sound Sonic

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why value Christian values over Christian values on homosexuality? It's not like the Bible sets weightings to each thing. Why value one higher than the other, when both are stated as values? Is this not preferential bias?
I don’t know 😂 I was just talking about my personal views
 

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but like how do u know the bible/quran/etc is legit? it just seems like through hundreds of years some stuff woulda got lost, or mistranslated. like was there a blockchain of bibles or something? if i was alive during the time, what's stopping me from saying hey this is the bible everyone follow me now? and if so, who wrote it? can we trust them that they wrote it accurately or how can we be sure they didn't have a bias to something? and why are there so many religions based on 1 book? r all gods the same? like what r the differences between jews/muslims/christians if it all comes from the same book?
one you actually have to read it and make that assessment for yourself. Read the book and don't wait for the movie.

1.there is good evidence historically (e.g. number of manuscripts) to put a very good case for the preservation of the New Testament (and a decent case for the Old Testament.
2. the Bible wasn't penned by a single author nor is it a single book, nor is it from one time period, yet somehow has the one consistent message.
3. everyone has a bias, we think we can approach a text objectively, a witness in a stand of court, will report his version of events. It is up to the jury to make the assessment of whether

5. not all God(s) are the same. The God in Islam for instance is not a Trinity and it would be blasphemy (in Islam) to say that he is. While on the other hand, a unitarian God is heresy in Christianity. (And that is just the Abrahamic religions)
6. not all the same book. Muslims use the Bible to try to justify the Quran comes 500 years after destruction of temple in Jerusalem, and its theology does not fit the theology of the Law, Prophets or Gospel.

@dan964 when u say, there is no point proving by science, yeah that makes sense. so that just come down to blind luck? like why do people choose to believe in a god with circumstantial evidence and not say big foot or ailens?
[/QUOTE]
Not at all, remember the 3 types of knowing, knowing God (and thereby confirming his existence) is a relational knowing. The example you used, is like approaching a person, with a hat full of names, and pulling out his name; that is not how we know God is what I am saying, it is not that; neither it is some philosophical argument that only the intelligent can understand and workout. It is dealing with a 'relational being' who connects with his universe (he has to be able to create it), and so to know this God, requires this God to speak words.

Generally speaking, devout people do not believe in God based on circumstantial evidence, or because they need something to believe in (like a gap in their knowledge), they believe because they have somehow is a lived reality. cannot speak for other religions, but for a Christian, it means they are convinced that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah and that he has come from heaven, 'God with us'

Regarding aliens/big foot, because these like vampires for instance are finite physical beings like us, their effects on the universe can be measured and understood easily and so we easily determine if it is possible for such contingent beings to actually exist based on factors like diet, deaths to humans caused by them.
 

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