Does God exist? (1 Viewer)

do you believe in god?


  • Total voters
    1,473

SylviaB

sorry if i offended anyone
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
6,165
Location
Lidcombe
Gender
Female
HSC
2021
I think in current times, with globalisation, technology, access to ideas and information, it's impossible for anyone on earth to have not heard about Islam. even the most remote of societies have access to some wifi and therefore some ideas. if you have heard about Islam but choose not to agree with it then you qualify for punishment (if Islam is the correct religion).
How is that just in any way? Punishing people because they were not persuaded by an ancient book of what would otherwise be considered fantastical fables? Even if Islam were correct, it is fundamentally irrational to believe that it is true based on the available evidence. Why would a just god punish people for behaving rationally?

spreading the word of god is a tremendously good thing to do in this case because you can potentially be saving someone's ass from Hell if you manage to correct their beliefs or change their worldview.
Okay, but this isn't just chance, muslims have been actively trying to spread Islam for as long as Islam has existed. You're using globalisation as a kind of cop out, because you aren't explaining why spreading information about Islam was a good thing during the time of most of its history where most people around the world knew nothing about it.

Even with globalisation and the internet, Islam would not be widely known if people in the past hadn't been furiously (and often violently) spreading information about Islam.

I would just be shedding light on a religion that they either misunderstand or don't know too much about
yes, but this is a modern phenomenon

free will does exist
No, it doesn't. It's a nonsensical concept.

, you have the choice to believe what you want or not. and what kind of example is that. you can choose to believe 1+1=3, but unless you're braindead you would know this isn't true which would then lead you to not believe it anymore.
No, I can't believe 1+1=3. I couldn't "choose" to believe that even if my life depended on it. I'm not "believing it and then realising its not true", I would never believe it to begin with.

it's hard if not impossible to believe something that you can establish is 100% untrue based on fact.
Okay, so now you're admitting that we cannot simply choose what we believe or not.

if you say that free will doesn't exist in belief then you're saying free will doesn't exist in general. which is ridiculous because all the choices you make in life are entirely yours
They're made by my brain, but that does not mean I am willing these decisions into existence any more than I am choosing to beat my own heart.

like you're the one choosing to make a left not a right at the next intersection, nobody can force you to make a right if that's not what you want, as an example
My brain is making the choice to turn right. I am witnessing the choice, and it appears in my consciousness as a choice I am making, but free will requires that the conscious choice is what is causing the choice to be made, which is nonsensical, because we cannot consciously choose what we consciously think. To do so would mean that we would have to consciously think about something...before we consciously think about it. It's logically incoherent.

It is not true that a lack of free will means people can't be forced to do things. Our minds are open systems and can be influenced by external factors. This does not mean we are making decisions directed by conscious thought. Our brains are integrating foreign information and adjusting their action accordingly. Our conscious thought follows the decisions made by our unconscious mind, not vice versa.
 
Last edited:

B1andB2

pyjama
Joined
Nov 6, 2019
Messages
503
Gender
Female
HSC
2021
Even if Islam were correct, it is fundamentally irrational to believe that it is true based on the available evidence. Why would a just god punish people for behaving rationally?
Believing in religion is not irrational nor backward. The Quran itself demonstrates its divine origin, and one way it does this is through scientific phenomena.

Big Bang Theory: basis of understanding the universe

100 years ago, scientific minds thought that the universe had always existed. Since it always existed, it didn’t need a Creator. The Big Bang Theory changed that.

What few people know however is that the Holy Quran described the Big Bang perfectly, 1400 years earlier.

21:31:

"Do not the disbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were a closed-up mass (ratqan), then We opened them out? And We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?"

Expansion of the Universe

51:48

"And We have built the heaven with might and We continue to expand it indeed"

Embryology

23:13-15

“Verily, We created man from an extract of clay; Then We placed him as a drop of sperm in a safe depository. Then we fashioned the sperm into a clot; then We fashioned the clot into a shapeless lump; then We fashioned bones out of this shapeless lump; then We clothed the bones with flesh; then We developed it into another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators.”

Mountains


27:89

“The mountains that you see, you think they are stationary while they are constantly floating like the floating of clouds. Such is the work of Allah Who made everything firm and strong. ”

Here, the Quran tells us that visible mountains appear stationary while in reality they float like clouds. There are only two ways in which this can be true: either the entire Earth is rotating, causing the mountains to float in space, or mountain ranges are somehow floating on top of the Earth. Both are true.


There are so many more. I reckon it's pretty cool that a book said this 1400 years ago.
 
Last edited:

Queenroot

I complete the Squar3
Joined
Sep 11, 2011
Messages
7,502
Location
My bathtub
Gender
Female
HSC
N/A
Believing in religion is not irrational nor backward. The Quran itself demonstrates its divine origin, and one way it does this is through scientific phenomena.

Big Bang Theory: basis of understanding the universe

100 years ago, scientific minds thought that the universe had always existed. Since it always existed, it didn’t need a Creator. The Big Bang Theory changed that.

What few people know however is that the Holy Quran described the Big Bang perfectly, 1400 years earlier.

21:31:

"Do not the disbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were a closed-up mass (ratqan), then We opened them out? And We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?"

Expansion of the Universe

51:48

"And We have built the heaven with might and We continue to expand it indeed"

Embryology

23:13-15

“Verily, We created man from an extract of clay; Then We placed him as a drop of sperm in a safe depository. Then we fashioned the sperm into a clot; then We fashioned the clot into a shapeless lump; then We fashioned bones out of this shapeless lump; then We clothed the bones with flesh; then We developed it into another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators.”

Mountains


27:89

“The mountains that you see, you think they are stationary while they are constantly floating like the floating of clouds. Such is the work of Allah Who made everything firm and strong. ”

Here, the Quran tells us that visible mountains appear stationary while in reality they float like clouds. There are only two ways in which this can be true: either the entire Earth is rotating, causing the mountains to float in space, or mountain ranges are somehow floating on top of the Earth. Both are true.


There are so many more. I reckon it's pretty cool that a book said this 1400 years ago.
okay? and so do the egyptians and many ancient religions


religion doesn't mix with science and is incompatible with a modern and progressive world.
 

B1andB2

pyjama
Joined
Nov 6, 2019
Messages
503
Gender
Female
HSC
2021
okay? and so do the egyptians and many ancient religions
religion doesn't mix with science and is incompatible with a modern and progressive world.
You need to provide evidence of what you claim. Find me something that presents all the scientific discoveries the Quran has.

Believing in God does not mean you are backward and being atheist does not mean you are progressive. I don’t understand why atheists tend to think such?
 

Queenroot

I complete the Squar3
Joined
Sep 11, 2011
Messages
7,502
Location
My bathtub
Gender
Female
HSC
N/A
You need to provide evidence of what you claim. Find me something that presents all the scientific discoveries the Quran has.

Believing in God does not mean you are backward and being atheist does not mean you are progressive. I don’t understand why atheists tend to think such?
It's not superior bro

I don't really give fuck tbh. The onus is on you for claiming god exists.
 

Squar3root

listening to tapes
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Messages
4,958
Location
welcome to ur tape
Gender
Male
HSC
2023
Uni Grad
2005
Imagine thinking if you don't believe in a God means your progressive

Like no we just don't believe in some backwards text written by people who think a pedo should be worshipped?

Think about if you didn't grow up Islamic. Would you go out of ur way to seek god? Probably not, it was just forced down ur throat growing up and ur just continuing that way of thinking.
 

username_2

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2020
Messages
46
Gender
Male
HSC
2020
lol. Western people and their religion. a big fat mess you are ay. haha. (I don't know why people are getting so angry about this daamn) indians are better. You tell a select group of them that their god doesn't exist they will just chop your head off. Then you'll see the lord for sure. Have fun/
 

Drdusk

π
Moderator
Joined
Feb 24, 2017
Messages
1,867
Gender
Male
HSC
2018
Uni Grad
2023
indians are better. You tell a select group of them that their god doesn't exist they will just chop your head off. Then you'll see the lord for sure. Have fun/
? What are you on about lol. India is 80% Hindu and the largest democratic nation. Last I checked chopping heads off ain’t in the law. India has its own separate cultural problems but chopping heads off for disbelievers isn’t one of them.
 

Drdusk

π
Moderator
Joined
Feb 24, 2017
Messages
1,867
Gender
Male
HSC
2018
Uni Grad
2023
oh. that was why I said select. I am not generalising.
I understand you’re not generalising but I’m curious now because I know nothing of this soo what select group is it.
 

username_2

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2020
Messages
46
Gender
Male
HSC
2020
Near my home town. It is more of a tribal sorta thing near the hills in the ghats. some people like that. That was all - just a fun fact lol.
 

Drdusk

π
Moderator
Joined
Feb 24, 2017
Messages
1,867
Gender
Male
HSC
2018
Uni Grad
2023
Near my home town. It is more of a tribal sorta thing near the hills in the ghats. some people like that. That was all - just a fun fact lol.
Ohhhh ok I see that happening since remote tribes are known for weird shit but they are very very rare. I remember seeing a documentary on one of them.
 

dan964

MOD
Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2014
Messages
3,203
Location
South of here
Gender
Male
HSC
2014
Uni Grad
2018
The Holy Trinity doesn't really make any modifications to the nature of God, neither do the beliefs of other Abrahamic religions. We understand the Holy Trinity as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, with the Father element being God. The only difference between Christianity and Islam/Judaism in that regard is the absence of the Son and Holy Spirit figures due to their lack of belief in them, leaving us with God. We might refer to Jesus as God, but that doesn't make him God the Father.

Tawhid (توحيد‎) literally means unification and this concept is not alien to Christianity.
Ah careful, as the bold text can be misleading or even heretical.

That is a huge difference man! If according to Scripture, God has revealed himself as 3 persons, according to Scripture, then Islam is heretical to say that God is only one person (that is the why the council of Nicea & Constantinople both declared such persons as anathema).

And vice versa the Trinity is heretical for Muslims:

Surah 4:171
O People of the Book! Do not go to extremes regarding your faith; say nothing about Allah except the truth.1 The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was no more than a messenger of Allah and the fulfilment of His Word through Mary and a spirit ˹created by a command˺ from Him.2 So believe in Allah and His messengers and do not say, “Trinity.” Stop!—for your own good. Allah is only One God. Glory be to Him! He is far above having a son! To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And Allah is sufficient as a Trustee of Affairs.

Are you sure God isn't immanent in Islam?
Well yes probably should clarify what I meant, the difference is in the degree, of course Muslims believe God created the world, and have some idea of God being immanent; but would a Muslim say they could know God personally or encounter God personally? I'm not so sure. Probably not (except for perhaps mentioning they have the Quran which for them is perfect word of God).
It is the idea of God's presence dwelling with man with man like what we see in Genesis 3, or with the temple (and priests) are foreign to Islam.
I would be curious to hear a Muslim's thoughts on the Surah 50 passage. (Yes you can take a Christian reading but I'd be curious to hear how Muslims view that verse).

I don't agree with this. Moses is the key figure in Judaism, so obviously he's of crucial importance to the Jews. He is important in Christianity and in Islam but his events aren't significant enough to overshadow Jesus or Muhammad.
I don't think you have properly looked into these things if you don't think there is any difference that is significant.

Basically the Quran doesn't quote the Old Testament, in the same way the New Testament does. For instance Abraham is mentioned, but never the covenant made to him; six days of creation (but not the seventh); Quran talks about Paradise (heaven) but God's presence does not dwell there. There is no overall story arc of salvation (that you can see throughout Genesis-Revelation).
Rather Quran uses Old Testament passages perhaps to illustrate the argument/apologetic.

The Quran also confuses Mary and Miriam (daughter of Imran brother of Moses and Aaron - Ex. 15:20, Num. 26:59)
(see Quran 3:35ff; 66:12, 19:27-28)
and there are other differences in the account of Moses, some not important, some important.

1. From Pascal's perspective, belief in God implies having the Christian faith (it is obviously biased since he was Catholic). Yet, we are trying to apply Pascal's wager to the different religions that we have today. Of course issues relating to incompatibility and ambiguity will arise. Despite the difference in the nature of true belief (as you mentioned), Pascal's wager remains a better alternative than atheism. Technically speaking, if a religion turns out to be true, an atheist who rejected God will have a chance that is significantly lower than a person who chose to become religious (even if the religion they chose doesn't end up being the true one).

2. What if God exists? What if we can't prove the existence of God to begin with? The same can be pretty much be said about atheism if the opposite were true. There are too many questions that can be asked back and forth, with no signs of a conclusive response from either side. Should we completely disregard/dismiss Pascal's wager because of rather minor concerns?
Pascal's wager is kind of very weak probabilistic argument for the existence of God, simply because believing that God exists is insufficient to be safe from final judgement in most major world [monotheistic] beliefs. There are better approaches and arguments (both for Christians and Muslims alike) imho.

(edit in blue: added word in last paragraph)
 
Last edited:

dan964

MOD
Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2014
Messages
3,203
Location
South of here
Gender
Male
HSC
2014
Uni Grad
2018
Believing in religion is not irrational nor backward. The Quran itself demonstrates its divine origin, and one way it does this is through scientific phenomena.

Expansion of the Universe

51:48 (actually 51:47)

"And We have built the heaven with might and We continue to expand it indeed"

Embryology

23:13-15

“Verily, We created man from an extract of clay; Then We placed him as a drop of sperm in a safe depository. Then we fashioned the sperm into a clot; then We fashioned the clot into a shapeless lump; then We fashioned bones out of this shapeless lump; then We clothed the bones with flesh; then We developed it into another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators.”

Mountains
27:89

“The mountains that you see, you think they are stationary while they are constantly floating like the floating of clouds. Such is the work of Allah Who made everything firm and strong. ”
Addressing the second first, I don't think that is accurate embryology. I don't think a blood clot is a valid stage of embryo development.
BUT both Hippocrates and Aristotle have the same prenatal development, 1000 years before Quran. (I can produce some material if you so desire)

Secondly, regarding the first one. Apparently that is only clear in whatever English translation you picked on.
Doing a little bit of reading (not heaps) there are two questions to raise.
Does the Arabic word translated 'heaven' refer to the whole of the universe, or the sky/atmosphere?

Secondly, different translations render the word 'expansion' differently? (Some obviously opted for the scientific reading), does it more refer to God's ability and power to be able to create.(which would make sense from the next verse)

Therefore, was that interpretation was picked for apologetic reasons. (aka. importing meaning into the text)?

Thirdly, if mountains 'float', why do Quran say they are fixed? (S. 16:15, 31:10, 79:32-33).
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top