Does God exist? (3 Viewers)

do you believe in god?


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jimmysmith560

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Ah careful, as the bold text can be misleading or even heretical.

That is a huge difference man! If according to Scripture, God has revealed himself as 3 persons, according to Scripture, then Islam is heretical to say that God is only one person (that is the why the council of Nicea & Constantinople both declared such persons as anathema).

And vice versa the Trinity is heretical for Muslims:

Surah 4:171
O People of the Book! Do not go to extremes regarding your faith; say nothing about Allah except the truth.1 The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was no more than a messenger of Allah and the fulfilment of His Word through Mary and a spirit ˹created by a command˺ from Him.2 So believe in Allah and His messengers and do not say, “Trinity.” Stop!—for your own good. Allah is only One God. Glory be to Him! He is far above having a son! To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And Allah is sufficient as a Trustee of Affairs.
I just realised I had misunderstood your previous point. If this is what you're saying then there's no disagreement there. My bad man.

Well yes probably should clarify what I meant, the difference is in the degree, of course Muslims believe God created the world, and have some idea of God being immanent; but would a Muslim say they could know God personally or encounter God personally? I'm not so sure. Probably not (except for perhaps mentioning they have the Quran which for them is perfect word of God).
It is the idea of God's presence dwelling with man with man like what we see in Genesis 3, or with the temple (and priests) are foreign to Islam.
I would be curious to hear a Muslim's thoughts on the Surah 50 passage. (Yes you can take a Christian reading but I'd be curious to hear how Muslims view that verse).
I have no knowledge about this beyond this point. I would also be interested in knowing more about the Muslim perspective in that regard.

I don't think you have properly looked into these things if you don't think there is any difference that is significant.

Basically the Quran doesn't quote the Old Testament, in the same way the New Testament does. For instance Abraham is mentioned, but never the covenant made to him; six days of creation (but not the seventh); Quran talks about Paradise (heaven) but God's presence does not dwell there. There is no overall story arc of salvation (that you can see throughout Genesis-Revelation).
Rather Quran uses Old Testament passages perhaps to illustrate the argument/apologetic.

The Quran also confuses Mary and Miriam (daughter of Imran brother of Moses and Aaron - Ex. 15:20, Num. 26:59)
(see Quran 3:35ff; 66:12, 19:27-28)
and there are other differences in the account of Moses, some not important, some important.
Once again I seem to have misinterpreted your earlier statements. I was focusing on Jesus and Muhammad when you were highlighting the differences with respect to Moses. We are on the same page once again (I should really stop answering people at 2am lol)

Pascal's wager is kind of very weak probabilistic argument for the existence of God, simply because believing that God exists is insufficient to be safe from final judgement in most major world beliefs. There are better approaches and arguments (both for Christians and Muslims alike) imho.
I guess it all comes back to how we define "believing in God". If it's just believing in the existence of God, then of course it will be insufficient.

What about atheism? You seem to mention Christianity and Islam quite often but don't give atheism much attention in comparison, despite Pascal's wager being aimed at it?
 

dan964

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All good. I'm the same, I sometimes re-read old posts and think what was going on in my head haha.

I guess it all comes back to how we define "believing in God". If it's just believing in the existence of God, then of course it will be insufficient.
Agreed.
What about atheism? You seem to mention Christianity and Islam quite often but don't give atheism much attention in comparison, despite Pascal's wager being aimed at it?
Generally I think Pascal's wager oversimplifies the things that needs to be considered. What about agnosticism? Pascal's wager might sway one from being an atheistic agnostic to a theistic agnostic (aka its better to believe there is something, just in case); but it isn't a really compelling argument for the atheist; who doesn't believe in the judgement (or would disagree with it anyway). Tbh the issue is most (non-believers that is) don't care if God exists.

On atheism, atheism when evaluated by the ideas of coherence, correspondence and pragmatic (is it liveable). There are real questions to ask about the basis for atheism. What is it its basis for truth, how we know things, how we establish morals? In the end it is reducible to subjective preference (individual feeling) or societal convention.
 

jimmysmith560

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All good. I'm the same, I sometimes re-read old posts and think what was going on in my head haha.


Agreed.

Generally I think Pascal's wager oversimplifies the things that needs to be considered. What about agnosticism? Pascal's wager might sway one from being an atheistic agnostic to a theistic agnostic (aka its better to believe there is something, just in case); but it isn't a really compelling argument for the atheist; who doesn't believe in the judgement (or would disagree with it anyway). Tbh the issue is most (non-believers that is) don't care if God exists.

On atheism, atheism when evaluated by the ideas of coherence, correspondence and pragmatic (is it liveable). There are real questions to ask about the basis for atheism. What is it its basis for truth, how we know things, how we establish morals? In the end it is reducible to subjective preference (individual feeling) or societal convention.
Agreed.
 

SylviaB

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There are so many more. I reckon it's pretty cool that a book said this 1400 years ago.
Islam is absolutely chock full of scientific inaccuracies
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran

You're just looking for things which you think are true to rationalise your pre-existing belief in Islam, even though most of the examples you listed are fairly dubious to begin with - people being created from clay? Really?

It is plainly unscientific and irrational to believe in islam on the basis of the the Quran. Also, don;t you find it bizarre that the scientific breakthroughs that supposedly validate the claims made in the Quran were made almost exclusively by Christians? If these scientific facts were truly available to muslims for 1400 years, it seems like they should have been the ones making these discoveries.

But ultimately, the fact that the quran literally claims that the moon was spilt in half should be enough to make any half reasonable person see what a load of nonsense it is, but then again, most of its followers are not even half reasonable
 
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Squar3root

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But ultimately, the fact that the quran literally claims that the moon was spilt in half should be enough to make any half reasonable person see what a load of nonsense it is, but then again, most of its followers are not even half reasonable
I'd believe in magic before I believe in this crock lol
 

B1andB2

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Addressing the second first, I don't think that is accurate embryology. I don't think a blood clot is a valid stage of embryo development.
BUT both Hippocrates and Aristotle have the same prenatal development, 1000 years before Quran. (I can produce some material if you so desire)

Secondly, regarding the first one. Apparently that is only clear in whatever English translation you picked on.
Doing a little bit of reading (not heaps) there are two questions to raise.
Does the Arabic word translated 'heaven' refer to the whole of the universe, or the sky/atmosphere?

Secondly, different translations render the word 'expansion' differently? (Some obviously opted for the scientific reading), does it more refer to God's ability and power to be able to create.(which would make sense from the next verse)

Therefore, was that interpretation was picked for apologetic reasons. (aka. importing meaning into the text)?

Thirdly, if mountains 'float', why do Quran say they are fixed? (S. 16:15, 31:10, 79:32-33).
The Arabic word in the non-translated verse is “alaqah” which has three meanings: 1. Leech 2. A suspended thing and 3. Blood clot

It is possible to compare a leech’s shape to the initial stage of the embryo. The embryo at this stage obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother, just like a leech which feeds on the blood of others.

“Blood from the mother passes through the placenta, filtering oxygen, glucose and other nutrients to your baby via the umbilical cord”

https://www.pregnancybirthbaby.org.au/what-is-the-placenta

Now the second meaning is “suspended thing”. The embryo is in fact suspended to the mother’s womb via the umbilical cord.

Third, blood clot. The physical appearance of the embryo can be likened to a blood clot. You are taking the translation, “clot” as an actual clot. Think of it as a simile. At this stage, the blood of the embryo does not circulate until the third week.

I am completely aware that Aristotle and other great thinkers have understood such. However, what I am merely trying to present is that past thinkers have in no way demonstrated scientific knowledge to the same extent the Quran, a single book that has remained unchanged has.

This is where Sylvia’s question comes in. This question did not surprise me.

It is plainly unscientific and irrational to believe in islam on the basis of the the Quran. Also, don;t you find it bizarre that the scientific breakthroughs that supposedly validate the claims made in the Quran were made almost exclusively by Christians? If these scientific facts were truly available to muslims for 1400 years, it seems like they should have been the ones making these discoveries.
Muslim scientists cannot be held accountable for such scientific discoveries simply because they did not discover anything. They cannot claim what they believe to be the word of God as something that they have discovered. They did not carry the experiments the Christian scientists who started from scratch e.g quantum stuff

Firstly, thanks for fixing up the 51:47. Now in terms of the translation of this verse. We must know that the Qur'an was revealed in Arabic, a highly complex and vast language compared to English.

Thus arises a lot of ambiguity when it comes to translating these into another language, one of which you have outlined with 51:47.

The Arabic word used in this is “samaa”. This can either mean 1. Sky or 2. Heaven. So how would one know which is the directed meaning, without taking a scientific interpretation?

As long as the meanings are derived from the possible meanings set in the original Arabic, then our understanding will not be wrong. The Quran matches the observable facts of the universe. It takes to the limit of people’s knowledge through its word usage, to match the people that understood it 1400 years ago and to also match the observations of future generations. This is evident through the “clot” scenario too.

Lastly, about the mountains being “fixed”. Many verses of the Qur’an state that the function of the mountains is to prevent shocks in the earth. mountains play a similar role to a nail or a peg firmly holding down a tent. For example, the Mount Everest, the summit of which stands approximately 9 km above the surface of the earth, has a root deeper than 125 km inside the earth.

78:6-7

“Have we not smoothed out the earth ˹like a bed˺ and ˹made˺ the mountains as ˹its˺ pegs”

The Qur’an in the above verse implies to make something rooted; to anchor; or, to fix something firmly not allowing that to move freely in which it has been fixed. The earth has different layers and by fixing the earth’s crust they prevent any sliding over the magma layer or amongst the layers themselves. In short, the mountains can be compared to the nails holding various strips of wood together. The earth revolves quickly around its own axis, were it not for the fixing effect of the mountains, these plaques would shift and shock the earth. In such an event, the life would be impossible.

Mountains “float” on the denser mantle but they are “fixed” in the sense of isostasy.

“high mountains have low-density roots that extend deep into the underlying mantle”


Finally, I just wanted to make it clear that all the purpose of me writing on this thread is not to “convert” anyone. It does not bother me whether you choose to believe in god or not. If you have noticed, the only reason I contribute to this thread is when I see a misconception of Islam being spread. I do not try and find fault in any other religion, and when i do question atheism it is never in a disrespectful manner. Because all I want to do is highlight how while you may not agree with something, other people (e.g me) do find reason in it and this difference is no excuse for spreading irrational fear and hatred.

This is my last response on this thread.
 

SylviaB

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Muslim scientists cannot be held accountable for such scientific discoveries simply because they did not discover anything. They cannot claim what they believe to be the word of God as something that they have discovered. They did not carry the experiments the Christian scientists who started from scratch e.g quantum stuff
But muslim scientists exist, and they conducted experiments and published various findings. I'm not saying they should have taken the words in the quran and published it as their own research. I am saying, given the "knowledge" they gained from the Quran, they should have had an insurmountable advantage over Christian scientists in being able to form the scientific explanation of the knowledge revealed in the Quran. They did experiments, so why didn't they do the right experiments like Christians?

If you say they had no need, then first of all, again, they were doing experiments and trying to work stuff out, so it's not like they resigned themselves to being satisfied by the "knowledge" gained from the Quran. Secondly, muslims were able to do very little with all this supposed knowledge in terms of making advances in fields like technology and medicine. Even when they did make some progress, this was disproportionately a result of secular Persian thinkers, which is the opposite of what we should expect if Islam is providing knowledge.

As long as the meanings are derived from the possible meanings set in the original Arabic, then our understanding will not be wrong. The Quran matches the observable facts of the universe. It takes to the limit of people’s knowledge through its word usage, to match the people that understood it 1400 years ago and to also match the observations of future generations. This is evident through the “clot” scenario too.
Yeah, no. You're clearly not being objective here. You believe Islam is true, therefore you assume the Quran must be true and rationalise anything to justify your belief.

The Qur’an in the above verse implies to make something rooted; to anchor; or, to fix something firmly not allowing that to move freely in which it has been fixed. The earth has different layers and by fixing the earth’s crust they prevent any sliding over the magma layer or amongst the layers themselves. In short, the mountains can be compared to the nails holding various strips of wood together. The earth revolves quickly around its own axis, were it not for the fixing effect of the mountains, these plaques would shift and shock the earth. In such an event, the life would be impossible.
Yeah, see, this kind of shit is just absurd. Allah is all powerful. He doesn't need to put 'pegs' in the ground. He could easily have designed the world such that it doesn't need pegs. Under Islam, nothing is "impossible" for allah. The fact that earth has tectonic plates that move around is a result of how he chose to design the earth. He didn't need to use anything to hold them in place, he simply could have decided that they don't move, full stop.

This is breath-takingly obvious examples of muslims taking the world the way it is and then coming up with explanations that are consistent with their ideology. Of course, it makes no sense that Allah's design is subject to laws of physics that we must overcome. HE created those laws in the first place.

Mountains “float” on the denser mantle but they are “fixed” in the sense of isostasy.
Mountains are a result of tectonic plates colliding with each other. To say they stop the plates moving around is to say that a wall stops cars from driving too quickly.


Finally, I just wanted to make it clear that all the purpose of me writing on this thread is not to “convert” anyone. It does not bother me whether you choose to believe in god or not.
I "choose" to not believe in god in the same way I "choose" to not to believe 1 + 1 =3, which is to say, not at all. I could not "choose" to believe either of these things even if my life depended on it.

If you have noticed, the only reason I contribute to this thread is when I see a misconception of Islam being spread. I do not try and find fault in any other religion, and when i do question atheism it is never in a disrespectful manner. Because all I want to do is highlight how while you may not agree with something, other people (e.g me) do find reason in it and this difference is no excuse for spreading irrational fear and hatred.
There is NOTHING irrational or hateful in this thread as far as myself or other talking about Islam. It is on the other hand profoundly irrational to believe in god on the basis of the Quran or any other religious text. It is profoundly rational to be opposed to the spread of Islam, given the backward and hateful behavior of muslims all across the globe.

There is nothing disrespectful about pointing out your religion is completely incompatible with science.

This is my last response on this thread.
Of course it is. You don't like the fact that somebody pointed out the holes in your backward, irrational ideology, so you run away.
 

totally_screwed

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Of course it is. You don't like the fact that somebody pointed out the holes in your backward, irrational ideology, so you run away.
yeah you win congratulations. it's not really running away, it's more like not wasting time on a thread that couldn't arrive to a conclusion after 922 pages of conversation

having an atheist point out the holes in this backward, irrational ideology won't change what the adherents believe

having adherents defend this backward, irrational ideology won't change what the atheists believe

both parties are adamant, wrong in the eyes of the other, so somebody is gonna have to call it quits and withdraw from a futile argument
 

Squar3root

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yeah you win congratulations. it's not really running away, it's more like not wasting time on a thread that couldn't arrive to a conclusion after 922 pages of conversation

having an atheist point out the holes in this backward, irrational ideology won't change what the adherents believe

having adherents defend this backward, irrational ideology won't change what the atheists believe

both parties are adamant, wrong in the eyes of the other, so somebody is gonna have to call it quits and withdraw from a futile argument
so pretty much at the end of the day it's just a belief and everyone has the right to believe whatever they want.

if i wanna believe in santa and the tooth fairy i should be able to and everyone needs to respect that
 

Squar3root

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just a questions for the ones left on the thread,

why should we believe in a god when there are muslims out there who smoke/drink/gamble/drugs/etc but they are adamant they are muslim and are following the religion?

like if didn't follow the rules of a club, I would get kicked off the club. is there a similar thing to kick mulims acting like this "out of the club"
 

B1andB2

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just a questions for the ones left on the thread,

why should we believe in a god when there are muslims out there who smoke/drink/gamble/drugs/etc but they are adamant they are muslim and are following the religion?

like if didn't follow the rules of a club, I would get kicked off the club. is there a similar thing to kick mulims acting like this "out of the club"
I already said that being Muslim doesn’t mean you’re going to be saved from punishment.


i was being srs, yr 12 is a bit stressful cos u gotta think about ur future/doing well in school/etc but yeah good luck and just remember that yr 12 doesn't mean anything a couple of years from now.
wow thanks so much it’s actually pretty cool coming from you ngl like thought you wouldn’t wish something nice upon me

thanks!
 

jimmysmith560

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just a questions for the ones left on the thread,

why should we believe in a god when there are muslims out there who smoke/drink/gamble/drugs/etc but they are adamant they are muslim and are following the religion?

like if didn't follow the rules of a club, I would get kicked off the club. is there a similar thing to kick mulims acting like this "out of the club"
There is judgement in Islam I believe, just like in Christianity. We are given a chance to live a faithful life and judgement will be the result of our actions throughout our life.

Smoking, drinking, gambling and drugs are not considered bad in Islam only. Christianity prohibits those as well plus some other things (which I believe Islam does too).

As for being "kicked out" I'm not entirely sure. However, I do know that for things such as marriage, a Muslim woman cannot marry a non-Muslim man under Islam unless he converts and vice versa, and that there are severe consequences for Muslims who don't adhere to this.
 

B1andB2

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As for being "kicked out" I'm not entirely sure. However, I do know that for things such as marriage, a Muslim woman cannot marry a non-Muslim man under Islam unless he converts and vice versa, and that there are severe consequences for Muslims who don't adhere to this.
Everyone is sinful, no one is perfect. Islam is not only for those who are “more righteous” and you don’t get kicked out because it’s not a club/cult. It’s just a way of life
 

Squar3root

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I already said that being Muslim doesn’t mean you’re going to be saved from punishment.
o right

wow thanks so much it’s actually pretty cool coming from you ngl like thought you wouldn’t wish something nice upon me

thanks!
idc about anyones religion/color/age/job/disability/etc etc if the person is decent then we're all good but u can usually tell when someone is being a shitcunt. it just so happens that the people I've had bad experiences with are usually muslim. like for e.g. i used to be a bouncer and kicking out white/asian people out is easy but kicking out muslims was difficult because they want to fight/swear/argue etc which doesn't really give a good impression if u nomsayin
 

Squar3root

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There is judgement in Islam I believe, just like in Christianity. We are given a chance to live a faithful life and judgement will be the result of our actions throughout our life.

Smoking, drinking, gambling and drugs are not considered bad in Islam only. Christianity prohibits those as well plus some other things (which I believe Islam does too).

As for being "kicked out" I'm not entirely sure. However, I do know that for things such as marriage, a Muslim woman cannot marry a non-Muslim man under Islam unless he converts and vice versa, and that there are severe consequences for Muslims who don't adhere to this.
what are those "severe consequences" and who imposes that? like the mosque or just ur family?

christians/catholics are way worse lol. i went to a catholic school and the amount of shitcunts there....
 

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