Does God exist? (2 Viewers)

[Tangent]

Here's some food for thought: I profoundly believe that 'God' = that little internal voice we have inside our head. Now, for many it has become socially acceptable to call it "God" (mostly due to its prolonged use through history). This is the "presence" you feel. Remember the human mind is extremely susceptible to hallucinations. We all "hear" this voice, or on the rare occassion see things sometimes. But not all of us want to give that voice a name, nether lone guide our lives by it. Ironically, the people who name it "God" are accepted and simply called 'religious people'. The people that name it Bob, Sally or Amy are labelled "schitzo's" or in the oddity "possessed" and subsequently "exorcised" by these "religious people". Oh the madness us Atheist's witness!

Edit: Prayer= Self Affirmations. Anyone who felt their 'prayer' was answered simply started the next day acting through better intentions. They had that little thing called 'Motivation'. No different to leaving a Tony Robbin's seminar or reading a self-help book. If you tell yourself something enough (take- "I want to be more confident etc) every morning and BELIEVE this will be 'aiding' you, that empower's your actions, lowers your insecurities and in the process allows you to achieve what you asked for- all through your own will, not a supernatural entity! God takes too much credit for people's success!!!

that means i tell god to shut up quite alot.

if it is religion that gives them the extra motivation then i say let them go for it. if it makes your life more worthwhile take up religion. everyone should try to get the most out of life, and make others lives better-although this doesnt happen very often, but its one of those"wouldnt it b nice" instenses.

what im trying to say is that if reading a book makes your life worth while, u should do it, same along believing in god, not believing in god and flying a kite
just dont take others rights and freedoms away

 

[Cookie182]

Yer, I dont know how you atheists do it

Youre so wise. Like miniture buddhas or something.
How do you find the strength to reject superstition and find the power to aquire the scientific knowledge that explains everything?? My unevolved voodoo mind cannot comprehend this. I'm just in awe in the way you can all, you know, rule straight lines and cut to the core of things - sort things out mechanically, efficiently and move on to other things - constantly improving your understanding and building that tower closer and closer to the heavens, ready to unleash your armies upon the clouds and destroy all lingering cave-men fantasy about any supposedly higher or greater being.
HAR
/OOGA BOOGA

See this is an interesting concept. I want maybe KFunk’s opinion here, as my proposal extends upon Kwayera's. Perhaps God is the search for a conscious explanation- in some sense, Western religion is ego based. It all relies on the social hierarchy- looks to the external for answers and validation. Perhaps though, Christ himself (I actually have profound respect for Yeshua of Nazareth btw) was an advanced moralist- some sources point to him taking the Buddha's teachings. Perhaps he simply had let go of all ego wants- extended into that realm of "ego death" or "Nirvana". My thoughts are exactly that. Is it so far incomprehensible that 'heaven' is a metaphysical state within one's mind? The letting go of those ego-driven wants- of all desire/attachment? If you read the 'Power of Now', Eckhart Tolle reduces the adage "I think therefore I am" to a fallacy- he believes that in the depths of his own depression, he discovered that he is beyond his 'mind'. As though he can sit back and simply 'watch thoughts'. It's an interesting theory- it obviously strays from the area of scientific proof, but religion is given that different realm all the time anyway. Perhaps Jesus, Mohammed etc were all simply 'enlightened'? That would suggest that creating an external identity of being a "Christian' for etc would refute the process- as that is an attachment, one in which one must live up to. Perhaps we should just all let go. The problem is- if you reduced yourself to a 'core self' would you be human? With no wants, what is the motivation to live? Perhaps Christ found that at the age of 33 as do young acid-trippers who jump in front of trains?

Just some rambled thoughts.

 

[Lukybear]

Interestingly however, just on the notion of religion being a good aspect of society. That is, it promotes the what wester society views as "good", i.e. love compassion grace. Why go against God and try and destroy religion? Why hurt others in your attempt to change their faith?

 

[Iron]

MOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLlll

This theory warrants exploration

 

[Cookie182]

Interestingly however, just on the notion of religion being a good aspect of society. That is, it promotes the what wester society views as "good", i.e. love compassion grace. Why go against God and try and destroy religion? Why hurt others in your attempt to change their faith?

Debating whether 'god' exists is not = to trying to 'hurt' others. If your convinced enough, our views should have no affect. And simply for the record, it is religion with its harsh views on other humans- gays, other religions, child rape victims eg that has some explaining to do in that area.

 

[Crestwood's_G]

one word starts with N

 

[Cookie182]

Here's a classic question I feel has been poorly answered. Why did 'God' (for simplicity well say the Christian God) create humans that he was simply going to send to 'hell' anyway? For eg- If being gay is biological, then why create 'gays' in the first place- given God is the almighty, future seeing creator. Why create atheists, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, in general any people who are going to live a good life, but not 'believe'? I mean God surely knows this anyway, he 'designed' them this way- they have no true autonomy. If the Bible is correct, and they are to be punished or simply left out of Heaven, doesn't that make you (even as the most devout Christian) question the 'all-loving' nature of our father? To me, it paints the picture of bigamist, cruel and sadistic creator. To deny this, as a Christian, means that God will let us all into Heaven anyway, and you HATE that. And don't rebuttal back with the "everyone has the chance to accept Christ"- some people's brains just wont allow it- you can't 'fake believe out of fear' nor can you biologically help being gay or being born into another religion. How do you people justify such cruelty? How do you sleep at night?

 

[rant]

the answer will be 'free will' again i'm afraid

 

[Cookie182]

I mean really Iron as much as you love God (and other BOS's theists I don't know by name), to deny that you believe he will subject billions of people to torture in the future (and has for the history of humanity so far) is not only an insult to your faith, but a grave insult to our intelligence.

 

[Cookie182]

the answer will be 'free will' again i'm afraid

That is not possible within the realms of logic. If God designed our biology, which Christian's use against evolution, he surely then is the knowing-cause of any biological abnormalities (not that I like painting homosexuality as that, but it is the most probable cause). Also, even if he 'gave' us free will, that in it's nature is questionable if he knows the future. Why allow a creature whom he knows will use their free will to not 'believe' to be created, if he knows they will be eternally condemned. CRUELTY.

Edit: I think of the 5 year old kid with the ant farm, enjoying the death of some of the ants who get led astray or simply 'venture off' and get lost from the colony. Or the kid who simply goes out into the garden and torture's lizards or insects for 'fun'.

 

[Iron]

I mean really Iron as much as you love God (and other BOS's theists I don't know by name), to deny that you believe he will subject billions of people to torture in the future (and has for the history of humanity so far) is not only an insult to your faith, but a grave insult to our intelligence.

I think you overestimate God's willingness to intervene in human affairs. Imo, we are offered strength through the Holy Spirit and inspiration and guidance through the Word, but little else. God doesnt cause cars to crash or volcanos to erupt or epidemics to occur. God made the world and wrote the laws governing it, but it is on autopilot and has managed with minimal divine intervention, beyond , you know, the creation, a flooding, guiding a chosen people and sending a son into a very confined time and place. The rest is up to us as Christians, to spread the good news, to develop ways to cure the sick, feed the hungry and let slip the love of peace.
We are in a race against time and against evil

 

[Kwayera]

Chillax. Fair is fair.

Well look at it this way. If its truly some pyschological effect of the mind, (but its not), the notion of God has made me a better person. Its changed me dramatically. I am having a better life now, either way, I win. But just to reaffirm, God EXISTS.

A belief has changed you? You mean you weren't a moral, ethical, humane human before belief in a god? Or has it changed your mood - has it made you happier? Why do you think that is?

It would be hypothetical for me to not ackowledge that one cannot proof or disprove God, since i've been pushing this for a while now. Its just like you said, i wouldnt care. I would just continue my faith and trying to serve the Lord.

Secondly, you said you didnt want to consider the inperceptable. I understand that, its not a unfamiliar feeling. But how do you know that God cannot be percieved as "real" by your definition. Have you tried? Have you tried harder?

Perhaps we could offer you the chance.

It's not that I don't want to "consider the imperceptible". It's that the imperceptible, by definition, can't be perceived, and therefore has absolutely no influence, or bearing, on anything I personally do or choose in this reality (whatever this reality happens to be - actually real, virtual, whatever). Therefore, what's the point? If your god cannot be perceived - and that is by your definition - then what is the point of a belief in it, especially since that it can never, ever be proven?

EDIT: And no, I have never felt even a shadow of perception of anything supernatural, be it ghosts, faeries, garden gnomes or gods.

 

[Cookie182]

I think you overestimate God's willingness to intervene in human affairs. Imo, we are offered strength through the Holy Spirit and inspiration and guidance through the Word, but little else. God doesnt cause cars to crash or volcanos to erupt or epidemics to occur. God made the world and wrote the laws governing it, but it is on autopilot and has managed with minimal divine intervention, beyond , you know, the creation, a flooding, guiding a chosen people and sending a son into a very confined time and place. The rest is up to us as Christians, to spread the good news, to develop ways to cure the sick, feed the hungry and let slip the love of peace.
We are in a race against time and against evil

Well tell me, how much exposure to the "trinity' does a child in Hindu India get or in a Pakistani Muslim community? They're told they will be saved by 'their' god, but cutting the bullshit you 'know' that is crap and they are going to Hell. To deny this would only show a lack of knowledge concerning your faith. I've had ministers and priests tell that to me, in those words.

 

[Iron]

Well tell me, how much exposure to the "trinity' does a child in Hindu India get or in a Pakistani Muslim community? They're told they will be saved by 'their' god, but cutting the bullshit you 'know' that is crap and they are going to Hell. To deny this would only show a lack of knowledge concerning your faith. I've had ministers and priests tell that to me, in those words.

Well we dont know that. Christ said that the only way to the father is through Him, but what did he mean by this? Did he mean that by following the jist of his example, which was already laid out in the OT? That is, to be loving and compassionate and meek and generous? To strive to know God more fully and bring this knowledge to others?
I dont claim to know, but I think that all peoples inherently tilt towards love. It takes a positive act of evil, of selfishness and falling to temptation for hate to prevail. These are universal themes that cut across all cultures

 

[Cookie182]

Well we dont know that. Christ said that the only way to the father is through Him, but what did he mean by this? Did he mean that by following the jist of his example, which was already laid out in the OT? That is, to be loving and compassionate and meek and generous? To strive to know God more fully and bring this knowledge to others?
I dont claim to know, but I think that all peoples inherently tilt towards love. It takes a positive act of evil, of selfishness and falling to temptation for hate to prevail. These are universal themes

So i am going to Heaven (given I've never killed/raped/assaulted anybody) and done good deeds for humanity, based on your defintion of Heaven?

 

[Iron]

I didnt define Heaven. You are someone who has been exposed to the Truth and decided to reject it.
There seems little doubt that you are bound for the hot place

 

[Cookie182]

I didnt define Heaven. You are someone who has been exposed to the Truth and rejected it.
There seems little doubt that you are bound for the hot place

So you actually believe, that given your in a minority even here, that most of us here (despite BOS probably representing the more 'moral' teenagers of society) are going to 'burn' in sulphur fires for eternity (fucking long time), have our flesh scraped off daily, yet, the next day have it back for the process to repeat itself etc

We are really condemned to that, simply because we don't 'see' this 'truth' you throw at us? LOL such a loving God you follow. It's MY fault, yet he gave me the free will and knew what I was going to do anyway. Personally, I think if you do believe that and EXPECT that for non-Christian’s then you are far more immoral then the rest of us, and respectively more deserving. How can you guarantee that the Bible wasn't a test from God- a test that if you selfishly followed it (and murdered/discriminated in its name, as millions of Christian’s have done) then YOU aren't going to Hell?

Short answer, you can't. Unless you'd like to presuppose a new definition of Hell for my entertainment.

edit: People think we should 'respect' religion for it's good. It's given so much euphemistic strokes. But seriously, when you cut the crap and get down to the fundamentals- it is a system of thought which breeds hatred of others and actively promotes the idea of eternal torture for other human beings. This disgusts me.

 

[KFunk]

See this is an interesting concept. I want maybe KFunk’s opinion here, as my proposal extends upon Kwayera's. Perhaps God is the search for a conscious explanation- in some sense, Western religion is ego based. It all relies on the social hierarchy- looks to the external for answers and validation. Perhaps though, Christ himself (I actually have profound respect for Yeshua of Nazareth btw) was an advanced moralist- some sources point to him taking the Buddha's teachings. Perhaps he simply had let go of all ego wants- extended into that realm of "ego death" or "Nirvana". My thoughts are exactly that. Is it so far incomprehensible that 'heaven' is a metaphysical state within one's mind? The letting go of those ego-driven wants- of all desire/attachment? If you read the 'Power of Now', Eckhart Tolle reduces the adage "I think therefore I am" to a fallacy- he believes that in the depths of his own depression, he discovered that he is beyond his 'mind'. As though he can sit back and simply 'watch thoughts'. It's an interesting theory- it obviously strays from the area of scientific proof, but religion is given that different realm all the time anyway. Perhaps Jesus, Mohammed etc were all simply 'enlightened'? That would suggest that creating an external identity of being a "Christian' for etc would refute the process- as that is an attachment, one in which one must live up to. Perhaps we should just all let go. The problem is- if you reduced yourself to a 'core self' would you be human? With no wants, what is the motivation to live? Perhaps Christ found that at the age of 33 as do young acid-trippers who jump in front of trains?

Ideas for the mixing pot:

I've attached an article you might find interesting. It considers the (Aristotelian) foundations of western ethics and thus why it may be individual- or ego-driven compared to the other-directed ethics found in Confucianism. Only tangentially relevant, but food for thought nonetheless.

Also, note the difference between rejecting the self and being reduced to a 'core self' (if such a thing even exists?). I haven't spent much time considering the Buddhist doctrine of anatman (or 'no self') but I would warn against being too quick in filtering it through western philosophy of mind.

 

[rant]

Edit: I think of the 5 year old kid with the ant farm, enjoying the death of some of the ants who get led astray or simply 'venture off' and get lost from the colony. Or the kid who simply goes out into the garden and torture's lizards or insects for 'fun'.

I used the example before and I think it still fits well. God is first and foremost a father and we are all his blind children. We all want to experience his love, we call out 'where are you?', we have fits and cry and fight. As a father he should be responding:'here I am', i mean, the least he could do is tap us on the shoulder and tell us where he is.

also i wanted to raise the issue of jesus and the prophets, they are the messengers of god, and scripture claims they have always been met with scorn. Why doesn't god create more acceptable missionaries? i mean if he sent down an actor, a president to preach his word perhaps more people would listen.

*A personal question, if a bum, dishvelled, bearded, somemewhat filthy, approached you as you were making your way to Town Hall Station claiming that he was the son of god, would you believe him? Would you drop everything you had, your life, your love to follow him?

And if you wont, why should I?

 

[emytaylor164]

Here's a classic question I feel has been poorly answered. Why did 'God' (for simplicity well say the Christian God) create humans that he was simply going to send to 'hell' anyway? For eg- If being gay is biological, then why create 'gays' in the first place- given God is the almighty, future seeing creator. Why create atheists, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, in general any people who are going to live a good life, but not 'believe'? I mean God surely knows this anyway, he 'designed' them this way- they have no true autonomy. If the Bible is correct, and they are to be punished or simply left out of Heaven, doesn't that make you (even as the most devout Christian) question the 'all-loving' nature of our father? To me, it paints the picture of bigamist, cruel and sadistic creator. To deny this, as a Christian, means that God will let us all into Heaven anyway, and you HATE that. And don't rebuttal back with the "everyone has the chance to accept Christ"- some people's brains just wont allow it- you can't 'fake believe out of fear' nor can you biologically help being gay or being born into another religion. How do you people justify such cruelty? How do you sleep at night?

The Problem with your question is that you assume we are all good people, we are not, we are all dirty rotten sinners there is no such thing as living a good life we all deserve to go to hell, even christians. do believe that we are elect by God, to say otherwise is un-biblical but i think we get to seek God to some extent and i think that if you truly seek God with the intention of finding him he will reveal himself ( I am up for correction on this) I do not see God as a cruel and sadistic creator at all cos he send's some people to heaven and some to hell, if someone goes to hell it is there fault the reality is they sin

I believe Homosexuals do make the decision to engage in homosexual relationships.

And that peolple of other relgions are worshipping false God's which is sinful.