Does God exist? (1 Viewer)

[dan964]

this is a very convenient response- it is utterly unfalsifiable.

Yes only because the concept of origins is not well defined outside of the physical scope of the universe.

Mathematically::
Lets denote >> (as from OR source): e.g. A >> B as A produces or A is the source of B
>> is well defined with U, where U:= universe, the set of all things that have causes.

(*) Axiom: Deduce there must exist some M such that M >> U.
Is M a subset of U? (i.e. does M have a source)? <-- this is your question fundamentally.
If yes, union M with U, rename that set U*, and proceed back from (*)
If no, then stop with your M as the first starting point (as >> does not hold outside of U).

One of two possibilities, either you have an individual starting point (a singularity existing outside of U, the set of all things with causes).
or an infinite series of 'covers'.

Applying this to the physical situation: empirical evidence determines that all things in the universe have some source/cause.
It is logically sensible to deduce the axiom that there must exist a cause for the universe (God, the singularity, the multiverse etc.)
Although the last of the three is more like the inifinite series of 'covers'.

This has told me nothing about why God would allow suffering to occur- he intends to get rid of it later?

Sorry my answer was very brief. It is a big topic, and requires openness to actually study a religious text (since empirically there is no way to determine an answer to the question).

The Christian does not claim to have a complete answer to this question, especially for the case of individual suffering. But here is basic logic flow:

1. God created the world but humanity rejected God.

2. God's response is to give people what they want - they want to live apart from God, which is under death.
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned "
Romans 5:12

Some other key points:
- Jesus makes it clear that an individual suffering does not correlate to one's own sin.
- Jesus (being God himself) went through suffering and affliction even death.
- Christians are to expect suffering because of opposition.
- And we see in Jesus' healing that God intends to end suffering one day, but this will come when the final judgement day comes.
- The reason he doesn't do sooner, is so that people turn to him.

That is a sketch of a reply to a massive topic.

Under the assumption that god exists and is outside of space time, it is impossible to discern anything about god- especially not 1. How can you conceptualise 'beyond spacetime' to conclude God is powerful or 'big', whatever those terms mean?

Certainly not empirically.
In terms of a rational argument, we must deduce that the God must be ABLE to create the universe of this magnitude and detail, this is what we mean by powerful and big. (Big was not a comment on size persay). So powerful here is akin to ability to create and maintain.

 

[dan964]

What can be rationally deduce about God:
- His power (aka ability to create a universe of this scale)
- His divine nature (aka the fact that he is not of this universe but can create universe, i.e. transcedence and immanence)
(basically what the average person calls 'a higher power')

Thats it. What can be empirically deduce about God. Pretty much those two.

To know God well, you have to look at his contact points with us - namely Jesus and the resurrection, because these things can be scrutinised and tested a lot more readily and without

Because you are dealing with a personal being, that personal higher power that has decided not to reveal himself via human wisdom/reasoning.

 

[idkkdi]

It seems that you're simply dismissing the possibility of ressurection because nobody else has done the supernatural, so therefore, it cannot possibly happen. In other words, you're automatically assuming that the supernatural is impossible as an argument to prove that the supernatural is impossible. If Jesus was indeed God, then the supernatural would be possible. If that were the case, then it stands to reason the reason why we're not seeing mass ressurections is because they are not God.

Based on your argument, you are not treating the bible as set of historical documents, but rather treating it as a story tale written by some guy in his cave, who then spread it out amongst a bunch of people. Maybe look into the historicity and authenticity of religious texts before formulating an argument.

In regards to cults, maybe look into the statistical likelihood of actual cults propagating worldwide, and see how successful they are. You'll find that all of them die out pretty quick. A big reason why Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are the 3 worlds biggest religions and have lasted this long is because of the amount of historical texts. Those 3 form the Abrahamic religons, which have a somewhat common base of belief, which then branch out further down the timeline. You'll find that it's very difficult to convince people to join a cult that believes that Peppa Pig is an omniscient being without any evidence to back it up.

If you compare aspects of the Bible and a story tale, they do indeed seem very similar in many aspects. The same applies to the other main religions. Only difference is that while the Bible is believed, fairy tales are thrust aside.

As such, is it proper not to classify the Bible as part of the conventionally regarded story tales? Similar to how I could interpret Santa Claus metaphorically as a spirit of happiness, many metaphorically interpret the Bible. If you put aside aspects of the Bible, while extending on and referring to your own ideas, is that really the religion anymore? If you say that you are delving into the spirit/meaning of the text, is it not similar to overanalysing an English piece that was written for fun?

For what reason should you not also prove that story tales are true if you were to try proving the Bible is true? Dragons have been talked about from ages ago? What makes us classify the knight saving the queen from the dragon as a fictional story, if the story has been repeated for such a long time?

Is the probability of the Bible being a conspiracy theory created about a possible higher existence not higher than it being an actually proper historical account? Do people not have altered perspectives depending on what they want to believe?

If there was a God, I would not classify it - because I simply don't have the intellect nor the worth to classify it. Rather, the writers of the Bible and other texts show pomposity in trying to understand something that can not be understood, and similarly those who try to figure it out, show such pomposity as well.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone can believe in anything and anyone can argue anything. What about that conjecture where it states we are in a simulation? Possible. Arguable. Yes.

Can God exist? Yes.
Are all religions somewhat like a cult? Yes.
Is this question of God's existence pointless? Yes, because it cannot come to a conclusion as long as God does not reveal itself as a human.
Will I continue to write in this thread? Hopefully not.

 

[blyatman]

If you compare aspects of the Bible and a story tale, they do indeed seem very similar in many aspects. The same applies to the other main religions. Only difference is that while the Bible is believed, fairy tales are thrust aside.

As such, is it proper not to classify the Bible as part of the conventionally regarded story tales? Similar to how I could interpret Santa Claus metaphorically as a spirit of happiness, many metaphorically interpret the Bible. If you put aside aspects of the Bible, while extending on and referring to your own ideas, is that really the religion anymore? If you say that you are delving into the spirit/meaning of the text, is it not similar to overanalysing an English piece that was written for fun?

For what reason should you not also prove that story tales are true if you were to try proving the Bible is true? Dragons have been talked about from ages ago? What makes us classify the knight saving the queen from the dragon as a fictional story, if the story has been repeated for such a long time?

Is the probability of the Bible being a conspiracy theory created about a possible higher existence not higher than it being an actually proper historical account? Do people not have altered perspectives depending on what they want to believe?

If there was a God, I would not classify it - because I simply don't have the intellect nor the worth to classify it. Rather, the writers of the Bible and other texts show pomposity in trying to understand something that can not be understood, and similarly those who try to figure it out, show such pomposity as well.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone can believe in anything and anyone can argue anything. What about that conjecture where it states we are in a simulation? Possible. Arguable. Yes.

Can God exist? Yes.
Are all religions somewhat like a cult? Yes.
Is this question of God's existence pointless? Yes, because it cannot come to a conclusion as long as God does not reveal itself as a human.
Will I continue to write in this thread? Hopefully not.

When looking at the bible, it is essentially a collection of letters/texts that date back to a time period, and should be analyzed as such. Most of them are essentially letters, which need to be in the context of that time period. Analyzing an english text is usually done with the purpose of figuring out what the author was trying to convey (e.g. the curtain was blue denotes sadness and whatnot), and are fictional, which are slightly differnet to how historical texts (scriptural or not) are analyzed by historians, as the latter needs to directly focus on the context and time period to make sense of what the author was trying to say. There are of course, numerous interpretations, some of which holds water, and others which might be circumstantial at best, and it's why there's numerous historians who specialize in this line of work.

I would say given the evidence, the probability of the bible being a conspiracy theory is significantly lower than it being a proper historical account (assuming if by conspiracy theory, you mean an attempt to create a following just for lulz). Whether they were hallucinating or whatnot is another issue, but as to being an actual conspiracy theory (i.e. deliberately misleading people), I would say the chances are quite low given what the circumstances of what needed to have happened.

Keep in mind that the biblical text is not perfect in the sense that everything seems to match up flawlessly, e.g. there are apparent minor contradictions between letters, which stem from different points of view as you mentioned. The letters are just an account of different witnesses, much like most other historical texts.

I also agree in that no human has the intellect to understand God, but that doesn't mean that God cannot relate to humans. If God were to exist, it would be pompous for us to try and understand God's mind. However, that doesn't make the authors of the letters pompous, as their intent is not to demonstrate that they know fully understand God (which they admit that they don't), but rather, they were just recording what they witnessed: no more pompous than if God physically appeared to you right now, and you made a video recording of it for others to see.

I'll try and just leave that there as well.

 

[dan964]

If you compare aspects of the Bible and a story tale, they do indeed seem very similar in many aspects. The same applies to the other main religions. Only difference is that while the Bible is believed, fairy tales are thrust aside. As such, is it proper not to classify the Bible as part of the conventionally regarded story tales?

I presume you are referring to the elements of the narrative that seem "magical", or the "miraculous" events.

Some of the issues with the comparison, there are more significance differences:
- No one ever claims that fairy tales are true, they have 100% clarity that the events they contain DID NOT occur.
- Fairy tales generally change over retellings.

As the BIble is not a single text with a single author, it is a collection of 66 texts, and the New Testament is the most well-preserved text in antiquity, both in terms of closeness to the events that its writers claim to document, and also in sheer number of manuscripts, both in the
original language and in translations made within a short span of time after the original documents were written.

Therefore we have 100% clarity therefore with the New Testament about what is being reported and that we are dealing with someone reporting an event (whether it is true reporting that is left to the reader to decide ultimately imho).

In fact the letter of 2 Peter reports this:
"For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of
his majesty."

Similar to how I could interpret Santa Claus metaphorically as a spirit of happiness, many metaphorically interpret the Bible.

Interesting Santa Claus is based on real historical events, but the story has been changed over the times (Dr Karl Kruszelnicki writes an interesting segment in one of his books touching on this and also deals with the science too).

While it is true that many metaphorically interpret the Bible, we have to ask if ones interpretation is consistent with the meaning as the original authors intended.

If you put aside aspects of the Bible, while extending on and referring to your own ideas, is that really the religion anymore?

The key principle in interpretation is context, and because each indiviudal text, while individual having its own context, is also set in the wider context that is created by the compilation. Therefore key interpretative principles are as follows:

> Scripture interprets Scripture. Typically one text usually affords or provides the ground work for another. This is especially the case, as later texts develop on the themes, ideas raised in earlier texts.

If you say that you are delving into the spirit/meaning of the text, is it not similar to overanalysing an English piece that was written for fun?

Not quite, one is most certainly a piece of fiction, and the other is a text that is historical grounded and is more like studying an autobiography than a piece written for fun.

For what reason should you not also prove that story tales are true if you were to try proving the Bible is true? Dragons have been talked about from ages ago? What makes us classify the knight saving the queen from the dragon as a fictional story, if the story has been repeated for such a long time?

The notion of proof is a difficult and quite frankly convoluted. I think if a story tale claims to be a historical account of an event that actually happened (however remarkable), then maybe it should go under the same scrutiny as the Bible. And yet most fairy tales would not stand the same scrutiny that has be faced.

Is the probability of the Bible being a conspiracy theory created about a possible higher existence not higher than it being an actually proper historical account?

No. It does not fit the character of the text. (I can expand on what I mean if you'd like)
It is worth noting the change in perspectives that are documented in the text - the text does not gloss over the unglamorous aspects of for instance the disciples lives.

Do people not have altered perspectives depending on what they want to believe?

This is a misnomer of a question, and is kind of a leading question. Is not a belief and a perspective similar? So the question is kind of a moot question.

Does one beliefs affect how you see or interpret events in real life? Sure, but to what extent is the real question? It is evident in this very conversation, in some of the things you have said, each ones presuppositions about life and therefore interpreting accounts of the miraculous.

If there was a God, I would not classify it - because I simply don't have the intellect nor the worth to classify it.

correction: If there 'is' a God.

Thats a good observation, it is not really for us to define God but rather to let God define himself.

Rather, the writers of the Bible and other texts show pomposity in trying to understand something that can not be understood,

I cannot speak for other religious texts since I'm not overly familiar. This delves into the topic of inspiration (which does differ from religion to religion).

Again this is what Peter explains about the testimonies of himself and the other disciples (and this can be applied more generally if understood correctly): "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

These are men who claim to have an encounter with God, whether through the Lord Jesus, or some other, and they similar bear witness to what they saw; or in other cases, God speaks with them a message, his words, for them to proclaim and speak to others; which are then written down into letters and other texts. Some of these men were fisherman, regular people, certainly in many cases, not the intellectual/academia of the day (some were and their testimonies are consistent).

I quote Paul on this:
"And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power. "

The point is for Paul, he did not come to convince people of the truth by eloquence or the clever philosohpical argument but he simply proclaimed that Christ was crucified (which is a historically verifiable fact), and that by God's power he was raised. This is the crux (no pun intended) for their testimony - they key that unlocks understanding.

Paul continues:
"We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived” - the things God has prepared for those who love him - these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."

Again Paul is consistent with Peter, it is not some extrapolation up to God, in terms of trying to 'figure it out' but rather it is an understanding (even a belief) and insight into who God is personally that is revealed and granted to them by God himself (through the Spirit).

Contrast that with the rulers (referring to the Jewish religious leaders and Roman leaders), they saw the same events but they did not understand the spirit/meaning behind them; because God did not reveal himself to them.

and similarly those who try to figure it out, show such pomposity as well.

Sometimes, when approaching God as you have acknowledged earlier, it requires a lot of humility and awareness that we are mortal/human etc.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone can believe in anything and anyone can argue anything.

Yes but not everything is beliveable. A belief is only as good as what it is in. and it depends what we mean by belief.
When a Christian talks about their belief (and may be the case for other religions), they are not simply referring to an assent to some list of ideas but it is more a trust in a person, namely Jesus Christ or God; and their character and their promises to act in the future.

This is because knowing God is more similar to knowing a person, than say knowing the rules of chess or studying/knowing an iceberg.

 

[dan964]

What about that conjecture where it states we are in a simulation? Possible. Arguable. Yes.

Although believable.

Can God exist? Yes.

If God can exist, he does. (aside reference to Anselm's ontological argument btw)

Are all religions somewhat like a cult? Yes.

Define a 'cult' - that term can mean different things, and is often loaded with certain connotations (typically negative).

Is this question of God's existence pointless? Yes, because it cannot come to a conclusion as long as God does not reveal itself as a human.

Well there is Jesus. That is why for Christians it HAS come to a conclusion and it isn't pointless.
And even if God revealed himself as a human, not everyone would accept it. Take how people responded to Jesus in the gospels, people will still refuse to accept it. As one such biblical author puts it:
"but in these last days he (God) has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. "

or in the words of Jesus himself:
"Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?"

Will I continue to write in this thread? Hopefully not.

I've been in this forum for about 6 years, I don't think we'll come to some conclusion that everyone will agree on haha. such is the nature of these things.

 

[dan964]

And for those who were wondering,

Bruh, did you get a degree in Theology? You seem to have done way too much research into this?

No degree in theology. I have done about 8 subjects and therefore completed a Diploma of Christian Studies, back in 2015 (last subject done in 2017).
(3 of the subjects are to do with mission/practical stuff, one subject in NT overview, one subject in the book of Revelation, one subject on ethics and one on apologetics).

But a lot of this comes from some of the Christian meetings and groups I've been involved with over the years, particular through the uni Christian group at my uni (UOW).

Mind can be a bit of a sponge. Lots of thinking about my faith over the years too. Taken some time to obviously put it into practice some of things that I've learnt, and still learning and being challenged intellectually which is nice.

I've looked into Islam a bit (was prompted by some discussions I had on this forum 5 years ago), as well as Mormonism (not as much).

 

[Logical()]

God is real!!!


Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God, so that what is visible came into being through the invisible.
he use of the word "ordered" is particularly appropriate in this verse. The universe was not simply created by God and left alone, but was created and given order, a form and unity that, through God, continually stands against chaos. God's loving presence is evident in the beauty and balance of all creation. Through our faith in the Word of God we know that all existence is the manifestation of the Lord. As people of faith, we do not need tangible proof to believe, and yet because we believe, we see tangible proof all around us. The point being made here is not about inventing beliefs, but about putting our trust in God, based on what we can see, in order to rely on Him in areas where we cannot see.

This perspective is especially important when reading upcoming verses about biblical figures. In each case, their faith is demonstrated by obedience to God, despite a lack of complete knowledge. Abraham is an example of trusting faith for that reason: his actions show that he was willing to trust God, though he himself could not see how God's plan was going to be worked out. Spiritually, as well as physically, God takes what is "unseen" to us, and makes things which, later on, we can see.

If it is God's will to let us know how the world was made then he would tell us however this is not the will of God, blessed are those who don't see but yet believe! However, many people always say Lord why don't you show me a sign, how do you expect me to believe if I cannot see. However God did give a sign this was his only Son being sent to the earth, God knew the people would crucify him however this had to take place for the forgiveness of sins. God gave his only son to show the world no matter how hard or how bad things might be for you now, know that my Lord has done this before you, the SON of GOD died on a cross where he was tormented, mocked when he not done even one sin yet we have done hundreds. God's grace is so big that he loves everyone so dearly. For do not worry about this world for it will pass but heaven will be forever.

There are any miracles still happening however people will always stay questioning we must think with our hearts and then our eyes will be opened to the amazing miracles that happen in our life.

Start with the bible because I can promise you it has all the answers!

God bless you

 

[ultra908]

(UOW)

up the GONG

 

[dan964]

For those who are curious, the Christian group at my uni, has started doing some talks through Marks gospel (one a week every Wednesday). I find the way they present it, is quite engaging even if you aren't religious.

Check it out: https://www.facebook.com/unibiblegroup/

 

[studiesofboard]

It really depends on you and whether you believe in him or not.

 

[Logical()]

Your not aggressive at all, this can help better understand your faith, that's why God gave his only Son for us, Jesus suffered physical pain and mental pain when he was crucified, Everyone is God's children and for Jesus to see them all rebuking him and killing something God offered the earth to help them must have been so hard for the Lord. God's love is so righteous and good when you feel it no matter what you go through it's like a peace sensation comes over us. But we are not perfect and there are bad people in this world but the Lord is right there and he helps us through everything. God has helped me so much and what I have been through God is always there for us, Earth is like a journey and Heaven is eternal the goal. Earth will pass for Heaven lasts forever. Genocide and war is all man-made and that's where free will comes in but this journey is only limited and heaven is unlimited. Like Jesus did his father's will and suffered through all this pain because he loves us and he is in heaven. And who are we to question God for we shall not lean on our own understanding but trust in the Lord!

 

[dan964]

Okay, so I've always been on the fence about religion and I wanted to ask a question since I've been kind of scared to ask my parents lol. (I don't mean to offend anyone with the question btws.)
If God is real, why does he allow for us to get sick? Or for us to be harmed? If we are his children, why do we face such awful things? I understand that he has created heaven and earth is doomed or something along those lines but if he loves us, couldn't he help us? Isn't it unethical to make us suffer through things like genocide and war?
Again throughout my entire life, I've always been leaning towards not believing in God but I do have a lot of doubt. Sorry if I came off as aggresive, I really am just curious.

The root cause of suffering would be death, if you had to pick one.

Nah hardly aggressive. Its natural to question why do natural disasters for instance happen particular to people of faith (who believe in him).
This world is kind of a ticking time bomb, and God is preparing a new one for those who love them, a better country (as one of the writers of the Scriptures puts it), a world with none of these things.

But it all comes back to Jesus really, because central to God's plan is a suffering servant king. It seems almost paradoxical, until you see him suffer and then raised to life.

The same is for us, suffering now but glory to come. We too will suffer and die, but those who truely belong to God, (not just acknowledge he is real), will be raised to be with Him forever. The resurrection is key - God is not only the one who created us but is the one that when it all looks bleak will revive us, and when we turn to him will receive us.

 

[SylviaB]

I mean, 10 billion+ other people have not risen from the dead. That's a pretty good proof for the unlikeliness of Jesus coming back from the dead. Surely another person would have been worthy of/done that if he had? As far as I'm concerned, you guys are building upon foundational layers of a concept to suit it to your perspective. Man, this is like English where you try to analyse every little piece of information for an extra interpretation, and no one can say that the author didn't intend as such because chances are he never wrote about why he did that.

The more interesting question is if we can argue the topic of God, how easy is it for cults to actually start? What about pigs flying? Damn, what if Peppa Pig is an omniscient being that appeared in some guys dream and told him to make it into a cartoon?

dude you just posted cringe

 

[Cyndiy]

No

 

[hifum]

No

yes

 

[studiesofboard]

God does exist. Depends on your perspective

 

[Velocifire]

God exists. He brings sweet people “u know who u are” and they help me feel better!

 

[SplashJuice]

How to create a flame war on the net

 

[studiesofboard]

How to create a flame war on the net

He exists