Does God exist? (3 Viewers)

do you believe in god?


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jimmysmith560

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Assuming a religion is true, I believe that the general outcome of being irreligious/atheist would be even less favourable than that of someone who followed the wrong religion.
 

Drdusk

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Assuming a religion is true, I believe that the general outcome of being irreligious/atheist would be even less favourable than that of someone who followed the wrong religion.
That would be if god exists which it doesn’t. So the initial proposition is itself flawed!
 

dan964

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The way I see it, as long as the core belief in God is there, Pascal's wager would be viable, regardless of one's religion. At the end of the day, it's the person's relationship with God that matters. This works pretty well with Abrahamic religions as they share this core belief (of course there are differences between other minor beliefs within those religions).
Pascals wager is not very logically sound, nor is it what God desires.
People shouldn't be believing in God merely to escape hell or judgement, because the alternative (to judgement) is to spend eternity with God which is good, but for those who dislike or even hate God, then that is a terrible thing too.
Nor does it prove the existence of anything. Reason does not prove the existence of God, because what we can prove about God is limited, and even then not all accept it.

Abrahamic religions have in common some shared history, some shared ideas, that's probably the main way they are in common. But their understanding of God and Jesus, and what is Scripture is different between Christians and Jews, and even more different between Islam and Christianity/Judaism.

Also, Islam kind of does a retcon on what Christian and Jewish scriptures (Jewish scriptures are the Old Testament part of Bible) say. The versions of the events of Moses in Quran and Bible are very different in their details and in their message.
 
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jimmysmith560

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Pascals wager is not very logically sound, nor is it what God desires.
People shouldn't be believing in God merely to escape hell or judgement, because the alternative (to judgement) is to spend eternity with God which is good, but for those who dislike or even hate God, then that is a terrible thing too.
Nor does it prove the existence of anything. Reason does not prove the existence of God, because what we can prove about God is limited, and even then not all accept it.
Perhaps I should clarify my position:

Pascal's wager is not and will never be the reason why I'm Christian.

My initial point was that Pascal's wager, when compared to atheism, presents a more viable alternative.

I don't personally believe that one's relationship with God should be built solely to avoid hell and punishment and enter heaven. This is not a business deal, nor is it what Pascal suggested it should be. On the contrary, he was encouraging people to believe in God.

Pascal's wager not proving anything isn't exactly relevant either. It was never aimed at proving anything to begin with since Pascal literally considered the idea of believeing in God to be a probability game.

Abrahamic religions have in common some shared history, some shared ideas, that's probably the main way they are in common. But their understanding of God and Jesus, and what is Scripture is different between Christians and Jews, and even more different between Islam and Christianity/Judaism.
Abrahamic religions' understanding of Jesus (seen as a prophet in Islam, not the Messiah in Judaism, the son of God in Christianity) and scripture (go back a few posts, I mentioned the difference in beliefs between the 3 religions) is perhaps different, but their understanding of God remains the same: God/Allah/Yahweh is the one eternal creator of all.

Also, Islam kind of does a retcon on what Christian and Jewish scriptures (Jewish scriptures are the Old Testament part of Bible) say. The versions of the events of Moses in Quran and Bible are very different in their details and in their message.
Are the differences between what the Quran and the Old Testament say about Moses significant to the point where they overshadow the most important messages of the Abrahamic religions? There are differences, sure. However, there is no conflict as to the existence of God in the Abrahamic religions (which is what we're arguing in this thread).
 

Drdusk

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I have one question about these Abrahamic religions.

Say you’re a member of one of those tribes who have basically not been contacted and as such never been introduced to the idea of religion(Christianity, Islam etc). Are you still going to hell even when you don’t even know about these religions?

Don’t just say it’s because everyone is born into it no matter what by god so their inner self knows about it, because I certainly had no dam clue about it until I started going to a school where Christianity was taught.
 

SylviaB

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However, If a person rejects Islam after knowing Islam and fully understanding its truth he will be asked about it by God. Otherwise he will be judged according to his own religion and his understanding of right and wrong. Simply being a Muslim is not enough to enter paradise. It is the righteous who are rewarded by God
This is utterly moronic. Something is only "true" to someone if they believe it. They cannot "fully understand its truth" and also not believe it to be true.
 

B1andB2

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This is utterly moronic. Something is only "true" to someone if they believe it. They cannot "fully understand its truth" and also not believe it to be true.
I wrote its truth.

The possessive indicates that I am referring to what the religion truly stipulates.

If you need to use pejorative diction (eg utterly moronic) to establish some sort of credibility and nitpick at my word choices to sweep the bulk of my answer to your claim i.e evidence from the Quran under the rug then don’t even bother replying.

I do question why I bother though.
 

Drdusk

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no, not for Islam.
Then why send messengers at all? Just let the people be unaware. No one would go to hell.

And if you are going to send messengers why not send one to all the untouched tribes who never got one? If it’s the true way to live life everyone at least deserves the knowledge on how to live it properly including the ‘unlearned’. God is the creator so he could’ve easily made that happen.
 

B1andB2

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Then why send messengers at all? Just let the people be unaware. No one would go to hell.

And if you are going to send messengers why not send one to all the untouched tribes who never got one? If it’s the true way to live life everyone deserves the knowledge on how to live it properly including the ‘unlearned’. God is the creator so he could’ve easily made that happen.
To not let people be aware so that everyone can be saved from hell defeats the purpose of free will. Why then would god have created the earth if everyone was to go to heaven? One chooses whether they want to believe in God or not, act according to their own conscience until the Day of Judgement.

51:56:
“I have not created men except that they should serve Me”

23:115:

“Did you think that We had created you in play (without any purpose) and that you would not be brought back to us?”

God created man to serve Him, meaning that men should believe in the One Lord and do well. This is the main objective of human life. A test.

17:15:
“We do not punish [any community] until We have sent [it] an apostle.”

This means that those who have never had a full authentic hearing of the religion cannot be blamed, one might say, for their “invincible ignorance” (catholic term). Today, these tribes that you are talking about, we can both agree, comprise a minute population of the human population. Consequently they are not punished. And while they might not be aware today or tomorrow, a time will come where they will become exposed to the outer world as humanity continues with its advancements.

God can make anything happen, but that defeats the purpose of free will and so to follow, the concept of heaven and hell.
 
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Ice-Cream-Man

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To not let people be aware so that everyone can be saved from hell defeats the purpose of free will. Why then would god have created the earth if everyone was to go to heaven? One chooses whether they want to believe in God or not, act according to their own conscience until the Day of Judgement.

51:56:
“I have not created men except that they should serve Me”

23:115:

“Did you think that We had created you in play (without any purpose) and that you would not be brought back to us?”

God created man to serve Him, meaning that men should believe in the One Lord and do well. This is the main objective of human life. A test.

17:15:
“We do not punish [any community] until We have sent [it] an apostle.”

This means that those who have never had a full authentic hearing of the religion cannot be blamed, one might say, for their “invincible ignorance” (catholic term). Today, these tribes that you are talking about, we can both agree, comprise a minute population of the human population. Consequently they are not punished. And while they might not be aware today or tomorrow, a time will come where they will become exposed to the outer world as humanity continues with its advancements.

God can make anything happen, but that defeats the purpose of free will and so to follow, the concept of heaven and hell.
Let ice cream man dm slide

Harus 12:18
 

Drdusk

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To not let people be aware so that everyone can be saved from hell defeats the purpose of free will. Why then would god have created the earth if everyone was to go to heaven? One chooses whether they want to believe in God or not, act according to their own conscience until the Day of Judgement.

51:56:
“I have not created men except that they should serve Me”

23:115:

“Did you think that We had created you in play (without any purpose) and that you would not be brought back to us?”

God created man to serve Him, meaning that men should believe in the One Lord and do well. This is the main objective of human life. A test.

17:15:
“We do not punish [any community] until We have sent [it] an apostle.”

This means that those who have never had a full authentic hearing of the religion cannot be blamed, one might say, for their “invincible ignorance” (catholic term). Today, these tribes that you are talking about, we can both agree, comprise a minute population of the human population. Consequently they are not punished. And while they might not be aware today or tomorrow, a time will come where they will become exposed to the outer world as humanity continues with its advancements.

God can make anything happen, but that defeats the purpose of free will and so to follow, the concept of heaven and hell.
That did not answer the latter question.

If god created man to serve him and he is all knowing he would know that millions of people like the indigenous Australians would die unlearned as they would not be exposed to it and therefore would not even be aware of the opportunity to serve god. Kinda defeats the whole purpose in only making a portion of the world aware of it. It’s highly contradictory.

Also sending messengers to Indigenous Australians would not be defeating free will at all. God sent messengers to a portion of the world as it without infringing on the free will of humans and so there’s no rational reason not to send one to tribes like the indigenous Australians who had no idea about this at all.

Even if right now there’s not many untouched tribes miliions or even billions of people have died through the centuries without ever being exposed to it and given the opportunity to serve god. Still contradictory that a god that is all knowing would send messengers to a portion of the world and say that all man is made to serve god while simultaneously not sending messengers to places that weren’t/aren’t touched for centuries. Defeats the whole purpose of the verse that we were made to serve god because if these tribes current and past were never exposed to information of god why would they serve god?
 

B1andB2

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That did not answer the latter question.

If god created man to serve him and he is all knowing he would know that millions of people like the indigenous Australians would die unlearned as they would not be exposed to it and therefore would not even be aware of the opportunity to serve god. Kinda defeats the whole purpose in only making a portion of the world aware of it. It’s highly contradictory.

Also sending messengers to Indigenous Australians would not be defeating free will at all. God sent messengers to a portion of the world as it without infringing on the free will of humans and so there’s no rational reason not to send one to tribes like the indigenous Australians who had no idea about this at all.

Even if right now there’s not many untouched tribes miliions or even billions of people have died through the centuries without ever being exposed to it and given the opportunity to serve god. Still contradictory that a god that is all knowing would send messengers to a portion of the world and say that all man is made to serve god while simultaneously not sending messengers to places that weren’t/aren’t touched for centuries. Defeats the whole purpose of the verse that we were made to serve god because if these tribes current and past were never exposed to information of god why would they serve god?
There are many indigenous Australian muslims. Not too sure what your point is about indigenous Australians being unaware??

EXACTLY the fact that they have been unaware is why they will not be punished.

However overtime they will become aware, as evident by ^^

“invincible ignorance” is not eternal as you’re making it out to be

sending messengers doesn’t defeat free will, but your argument: why doesn’t god let everyone be aware/unaware to save them from hell does.
 
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Drdusk

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There are many indigenous Australian muslims. Not too sure what your point is about indigenous Australians being unaware??
There were none before Australia was colonized. Before that millions did die without serving god. If all man is made to serve god why would god not give the same information through messengers to THOSE tribes. This is not just for Australians but for any tribes. Overtime they will become aware but after many have already died being unaware because they weren't sent a messenger. That's the point and it has not been addressed yet. The question is not that they will eventually become aware. Many will die unaware before that community becomes aware due to not being sent a messenger. Only reason Indigenous Australians are aware now is because it has been colonized.
 

B1andB2

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There were none before Australia was colonized. Before that millions did die without serving god. If all man is made to serve god why would god not give the same information through messengers to THOSE tribes. This is not just for Australians but for any tribes. Overtime they will become aware but after many have already died being unaware because they weren't sent a messenger. That's the point and it has not been addressed yet. The question is not that they will eventually become aware. Many will die unaware before that community is aware due to not being sent a messenger.
They died unaware and thus they will not be punished for not serving their purpose due to “invincible ignorance” (I keep saying this term because it describes it well)

You’re going around in circles, Dr dusk.

The information spreads. God doesn’t just instill it. Islam started very small, and grew as people accepted it with their will.
 

Drdusk

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They died unaware and thus they will not be punished for not serving their purpose due to “invincible ignorance” (I keep saying this term because it describes it well)

You’re going around in circles, Dr dusk.
Your not getting my point. Verse says we're born to serve god, yet some millions of people died never serving god because they were never told about it and not because they chose not to. That defeats the whole purpose of the verse. That just means it's not the purpose of all humans to serve god. The point isn't if they're punished or not but that they were never shown the purpose of life which is to serve god even when god says that that's their purpose in the verse. How is it the purpose of all humans to serve god when all humans aren't shown the relevant information about that purpose before they die?, even if they aren't punished.

The information spreads. God doesn’t just instill it. Islam started very small, and grew as people accepted it with their will.
God is all knowing and so it would've been a much more inclusive strategy if god sent messengers to these untouched communities but they never got one and so never got the information/opportunity to serve the god which says that's their purpose. These tribes could've accepted god with their own free will as well and not been left out.
 

B1andB2

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Your not getting my point. Verse says we're born to serve god, yet some millions of people died never serving god because they were never told about it and not because they chose not to. That defeats the whole purpose of the verse.
The purpose is to serve god. One can only do so if they are aware of religion.

Hence, those who have died due to invincible ignorance do not get punished, as they were not able to be exposed to religion. However, over time, as evident through the Indigenous Australian community, the information becomes accessible and it is at that stage where God tests whether one believes or disbelieves, and that is when the verse comes in.

I have already stated earlier why God does not just « enlighten » everyone.

And I have already stated that Islam started off very small, in the period of « Quraysh » in which monotheism did not exist and everyone who is Muslim today is as a result of the people who were once unaware, becoming aware.
 

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