Gay people should not be allowed to access IVF (3 Viewers)

[ashie0]

of course a father is capable of talking to his daughter about her period or whatever other issue arises. fuck. there is no evidence to support the statement that heterosexual couples make better parents. why on earth would the combination of a male and a female be a superior parent?

 

[kami]

Just on the notion of the child, I was wondering ppl's views in respect to the necessity of growing up with a mother & a father?

I know this is a common argument, I'm particularly undecided on it. Obviously, many children of heterocouples grow up with only a single parent in their life; but that doesn't take away the fact that they do have a parent of each sex. It is obviously an interesting area of discussion.

What about the 13 yr old girl who just got her periods for the first time and isn't sure which dad to talk to?

Eh?

Aside from the single parents example, demonstrating that a single sex can deal with issues of children from other sexes, that there is no need for a parent of a specific gender, there's also the fact that a large amount of same sex couples with biological children co-parent. There are both mothers and fathers, usually two of each, in this arrangement so the lack of mother and father thing is nonsense there.

From what I read it sounded like he was saying that neither homosexual couples nor heterosexual women who don't have some disease giving them complications should choose IVF. TBH I don't think it's that outlandish...

For instance if I were to say the following, i doubt there' would be so many objections:

"It seems to me that people are making the choice to go with IVF a little soon, women (and their partners) whom still have plenty of time on their biological clock and no known physical ailment should continue trying naturally as this is much cheaper etc. I also think that homosexuals should look for other options, such as (in the case of two males) finding a female friend who'd be willing to have the child with them naturally or (in the case of two females) a male friend.... or there's always lots of kids to adopt"

People may have objections or whatever, but I doubt it'd illicit this response. Perhaps I'm being far too kind... but ehhh - to me few people seem to have read his comments this way.

Chad, what is your position on the case of a fertile partner of a different sexed couple having extramarital sex in the hope of having a child to raise with their sterile partner? Is this not a natural way that is capable of addressing this issue which should be looked at beforehand?

It's a similar proposition but without the additional barrier of sexual orientation. neo_con's position is ludicrous, it's similar to Iron's proposition of a gay man making an 'honest woman' out of someone but without the religious trappings, merely a stance on a societal issue with an intellectually dishonest fiscal rationale.

 

[baybeejulia]

personally, i think same sex relationships ARE against the natural order of things.. but who am i to determine how people live their lives.. it's not their fault they hav gay tendencies..

 

[ashie0]

the 'natural order' of things a lot of people seem to be referring to is a socially constructed norm, not 'natural' at all.

 

[baybeejulia]

Just on the notion of the child, I was wondering ppl's views in respect to the necessity of growing up with a mother & a father?

I know this is a common argument, I'm particularly undecided on it. Obviously, many children of heterocouples grow up with only a single parent in their life; but that doesn't take away the fact that they do have a parent of each sex. It is obviously an interesting area of discussion.

What about the 13 yr old girl who just got her periods for the first time and isn't sure which dad to talk to?

personally.. i grew up with just my mother.. and my nan.. and i think i turned out great, but its extremely hard work, and emotionally hard on everyone involved.. and i love my mum for the great job shes done.. but i do think sometimes that if my dad stuck around, i may have done a lil better.. or maybe worse, who knows

 

[SylviaB]

lol @ refering to artificial insemination as 'the natural order'.

 

[jules.09]

Just on the notion of the child, I was wondering ppl's views in respect to the necessity of growing up with a mother & a father?

I know this is a common argument, I'm particularly undecided on it. Obviously, many children of heterocouples grow up with only a single parent in their life; but that doesn't take away the fact that they do have a parent of each sex. It is obviously an interesting area of discussion.

What about the 13 yr old girl who just got her periods for the first time and isn't sure which dad to talk to?

Haha. The 13 year old girl with her menarche most probably heard about it from her friends. Her parents don't really need to educate her.

As for the notion of the mother and father, everyone has biological parents (they do have a parent of each sex, whether it be through artificial insemination etc), but people they grow up with may pertain to an assortment of sexual orientations. I think the most important role parents and guardians can play in a child's life is to mentally nurture, support and provide for them. This takes patience and understanding, and is not necessarily limited nor inherent to any gender.

I think the argument that males and females perform according to a certain function (with respect to a child's upbringing) is somewhat outdated. The social construct that females are nurturing figures and that males are breadwinners is growing thin. The pressures are still there but the distinct roles have merged.

My mum won't necessarily be the one to teach me how to sew or cook, nor will my dad on how to change the car's engine oil and filter and soldering components of an electronic circuit.


This is what DIY books are for.

 

[Jemelet]

Firstly, you seem to have missed the point of this thread. This thread isn't a debate on the legality of same-sex relationships. You and many other people in this thread have confused people's preference for a policy (prohibiting same sex couples and single women from obtaining IVF treatment) with people's stance on homosexuality. You can agree with a particular policy that may impact negatively upon a class of people without hating or disliking that class of people. That's common sense, but it's common sense that most people in this thread seem to lack.

I'm only asking whether people take in all accounts, reasons and situations. And i was actually TRYING to target all the negative comments, not on the topic of the thread itself.

Also, your pro-gay arguments are unbelievably derivative, stupid and cliche. The only thing you seem to have forgotten is, "ANIMALS HAVE GAY SEX TOO!". Just quickly though

Why should i have 'remembered' that animals have gay sex? How does that relate to specifically speaking about humans? how does it relate to my questioning of peoples initial reactions? I'm confused.

1) Ancient cultures also institutionalized pedophilia, human sacrifices, rape and sexual servitude and slavery. Just because an idea is old, it isn't necessarily better. Look at Christianity.

Modern society does the exact same things today just in different forms. And i never said it was a good idea.

2) There is no fundamental human right to be butt-buddies. People, particularly on the left love to make up human rights when its convenient for them.

Not what I'm arguing. I never said there was a right to be "butt-buddies". I'm saying the sexuality of a person/couple should not interfere with whether or not child rearing is something which they should have access to. Human rights comes in the idea that we shouldn't be able to pick and choose based on gender, sexuality etc; which comes under Discrimination.

3) Christ, someone always tries to crap on about how horrible heterosexual relationships are. How we have divorce and domestic violence. Your post is unique because you try to make out that gay relationships are SUPERIOR to heterosexual relationships. We all have the same problems, and it's easy to imagine that gay marriages would be just as shit in many instances as bad heterosexuals marriages. Your shit aint gold love.

I am not saying they are superior. I'm saying that if considering whether a couple or not can have a child based on sexuality then why do some people have the notion that 'normal' couples are healthier or better when heterosexual relations can be disruptive and grossly unhealthy? Homosexual relations can be the same.
Also, i hope my shit isn't gold because I've been flushing it all these years ><.

Re: The topic. I believe health care services should be rationed on a basis of need, not want. I don't believe that some elective procedures, such as IVF treatment for homosexuals and single women should be subject to government support. I also feel that people wanting to undertake such procedures should be placed in a queue behind people who are unable to conceive naturally.

On this i agree to a point. But the problem with the wording of both all original statements and my own is that we need to be careful with how we define Natural and to who(or what) we apply it to.

 

[SnowFox]

Modern society does the exact same things today just in different forms. And i never said it was a good idea.

Third world countries do that, not "Modern Societies." Homosexuality is a natural occurrence, not some sick fetish.

I am not saying they are superior. I'm saying that if considering whether a couple or not can have a child based on sexuality then why do some people have the notion that 'normal' couples are healthier or better when heterosexual relations can be disruptive and grossly unhealthy? Homosexual relations can be the same.
Also, i hope my shit isn't gold because I've been flushing it all these years ><.

I've met several homosexual couples, and to say the least, they would live cleaner then a alcohol wipe.

 

[Jemelet]

Third world countries do that, not "Modern Societies." Homosexuality is a natural occurrence, not some sick fetish.
I've met several homosexual couples, and to say the least, they would live cleaner then a alcohol wipe.

For friggs sake, im not saying their saints and i am not saying they would be horribly >< pay attention! at no point have i said that i thought they would be bad parents. at no point did i say they would be the best parents! i am also not talking about the entire population of homosexuals! read the text will you. i said "CAN BE" at no point did i say they are like that or that all homosexuals are like that!
also i meant "institutionalized pedophilia, human sacrifices, rape and sexual servitude and slavery" all appear in different forms but not in the forms u expect. more then likely not the ones u seem to think. most western societies ("Modern societies") participate in such things. perhaps not the pedophilia but every thing else still exists; some in their original and most literal forms, others not so much.

 

[jules.09]

also i meant "institutionalized pedophilia, human sacrifices, rape and sexual servitude and slavery" all appear in different forms but not in the forms u expect. more then likely not the ones u seem to think. most western societies ("Modern societies") participate in such things. perhaps not the pedophilia but every thing else still exists; some in their original and most literal forms, others not so much.

Oh, pedophilia exists in 'modern societies' alright. It's also criminal.

But as for the human sacrifices, rape, sexual servitude and slavery occuring in a different form, you have yet to provide examples and/or evidence.

 

[kami]

Oh, pedophilia exists in 'modern societies' alright. It's also criminal.

But as for the human sacrifices, rape, sexual servitude and slavery occuring in a different form, you have yet to provide examples and/or evidence.

lawl.

Rape happens on a daily basis and sexual servitude and slavery are usually intertwined in ghetto situations involving immigrant women in imposed prostitution. I'm rather puzzled to Jemlet's reference to human sacrifice though.

 

[jules.09]

lawl.

Rape happens on a daily basis and sexual servitude and slavery are usually intertwined in ghetto situations involving immigrant women in imposed prostitution. I'm rather puzzled to Jemlet's reference to human sacrifice though.

Haha. No, I'm well aware that such things occurs rather frequently, but Jemlet's post felt like a shopping list to me. Also, these crimes appear in unsuspecting forms, which I have yet to be enlightened of.

Rape sounds like rape to me. And sexual servitude probably equates to something like the Asian sex trade. But different forms..?

When the claims are that extravagant and generalised, I think they need to be substantiated. Human sacrifice was interesting, I agree.

 

[Dooga]

He was a coward to back down.

You cant simplify infertility so much, gays. Infertile heterosexuals have legitimate diseases that hinder their natural desire to raise a family together, while the homosexual or whoever want a babby as some 'accessory' to enhance their 'quality of life' and 'experience'. One approaches medicine for a cure, the other approaches it for kicks. It's bs.

im gonna support you in this one

besides for a kid to grow up properly in the mental state of mind they need both a motherly and fatherly presence. Having only one parent or gay parents severely increases the risk that the child may become mentally unstable. Especially in the case of having gay parents. All through out school life, which is essentially most of our lives until were 18, the kid will be under constant harassment from other kids. Firstly through primary years where all the other little kids will think he/she is a wierdo for having two dads or two mums, and then during adolescents where the child will cop shit for being a homo even if they aren't.

 

[Sprangler]

im gonna support you in this one

besides for a kid to grow up properly in the mental state of mind they need both a motherly and fatherly presence[citation needed]. Having only one parent or gay parents severely increases the risk that the child may become mentally unstable.[citation needed] Especially in the case of having gay parents[citation needed].

[citation needed]

 

[kami]

im gonna support you in this one

besides for a kid to grow up properly in the mental state of mind they need both a motherly and fatherly presence. Having only one parent or gay parents severely increases the risk that the child may become mentally unstable. Especially in the case of having gay parents. All through out school life, which is essentially most of our lives until were 18, the kid will be under constant harassment from other kids. Firstly through primary years where all the other little kids will think he/she is a wierdo for having two dads or two mums, and then during adolescents where the child will cop shit for being a homo even if they aren't.

Read this:

Haha. The 13 year old girl with her menarche most probably heard about it from her friends. Her parents don't really need to educate her.

As for the notion of the mother and father, everyone has biological parents (they do have a parent of each sex, whether it be through artificial insemination etc), but people they grow up with may pertain to an assortment of sexual orientations. I think the most important role parents and guardians can play in a child's life is to mentally nurture, support and provide for them. This takes patience and understanding, and is not necessarily limited nor inherent to any gender.

I think the argument that males and females perform according to a certain function (with respect to a child's upbringing) is somewhat outdated. The social construct that females are nurturing figures and that males are breadwinners is growing thin. The pressures are still there but the distinct roles have merged.

My mum won't necessarily be the one to teach me how to sew or cook, nor will my dad on how to change the car's engine oil and filter and soldering components of an electronic circuit.


This is what DIY books are for.

And this:

Eh?

Aside from the single parents example, demonstrating that a single sex can deal with issues of children from other sexes, that there is no need for a parent of a specific gender, there's also the fact that a large amount of same sex couples with biological children co-parent. There are both mothers and fathers, usually two of each, in this arrangement so the lack of mother and father thing is nonsense there.

And this:

of course a father is capable of talking to his daughter about her period or whatever other issue arises. fuck. there is no evidence to support the statement that heterosexual couples make better parents. why on earth would the combination of a male and a female be a superior parent?

And this:

Don't be a fool. In the confines of school, kids are monsters who prey on anything they can. You will be bullied for being fat, skinny, smart, dumb, tall, short, for having bad teeth, for being poor, for being rich, for being pale, for being dark, for having birth marks, for liking girls, for being un/circumcised, for being flat chested, for having huge knockers and a million other things. It's just inevitable in an environment like that. Children of queers will receive much less heat than someone who is queer themselves.

And this:

I'm not missing it at all - I'm saying it's irrelevant. If you aren't charismatic or whatever then you will get bullied, it doesn't matter either way, they will find something to bully you on and if you're the type not to get bullied (in primary at least) then you won't be regardless of parents. Seriously, a 9 year old won't understand enough to give a fuck about it except as a tool to make anyone feel bad. We all know this - we were either the kids that did it or the kids who were the subject of it.

Seriously problems can arise, I'm not disregarding homophobia and all that, I've seen its horrendous effects on some people's lives but as far as kids at school go but your children will never be safe from being called names and having someone socially exclude them. If you're a good parent then you can raise them to have enough confidence and self-esteem for it not to do any significant harm but you can't insulate them from it no matter who you are.

I know that, personally, I did some obviously not hetero things in primary school, like making out with another boy in the middle of class etc. and no one batted an eye. Not because the Shire was such a gay friendly place (it isn't) but because it didn't matter to kids. The fact that they could rhyme my name with 'devon' seemed to be of more relevance until I was like 13, no matter how or what I behaved like. Real homophobia doesn't really come out (no pun intended) until puberty and afterward and hetero kids (because that's who we're really talking about in this instance) of LGBTI parents won't suffer the brunt of this new found aggression, especially since the parents aren't as visible a presence in the child's school life by that point.

After you've read these, make an intelligent assertion or at least try.

 

[Smile_Time351]

surprisingly, i am on the fence with this one. Usually i would err on the side of being liberal, but for some strange reason Irons arguments make sense to me.

You and me both Sirius. What's up with that?

Personally, the issue for me isn't whether they can access IVF, as opposed to whether they should receive government support for the process. The first one, I believe the answer should be yes. The second should be on a case-by-case basis. And to be clear, said basis should not only apply to homosexuals, single mothers etc. ALL cases of people requesting IVF should be scrutinised carefully before making a decision- yay or nay.

 

[Tangent]

You and me both Sirius. What's up with that?

Personally, the issue for me isn't whether they can access IVF, as opposed to whether they should receive government support for the process. The first one, I believe the answer should be yes. The second should be on a case-by-case basis. And to be clear, said basis should not only apply to homosexuals, single mothers etc. ALL cases of people requesting IVF should be scrutinised carefully before making a decision- yay or nay.

Yes, that is what is being aimed for - equality. Just to not be discriminated against and treated like everyone else

 

[Garygaz]

I think the main problem people are seeing with this is that most medical treatments/procedures either fix or enhance where as IVF for gay/lesbians kind of feels like science run amok, breaking natural order.

 

[rokkuguhyo]

For a country that allows criminals and other scumbags too many rights, it sure does ignore the rights of the more deserving members of society.


Why shouldn't gay couples be allowed to have a child through IVF? They're equally as capable of being parents as any male-female couple.