Islam (3 Viewers)

[HotShot]

I agree. For example, take the Indian culture. One of my cousin's friend got married last year. However the guy that she was going to marry, she:

a) never spoke to him or
b) never saw him in person and;
c) Only saw his photograph

This is a very traditional line of marriage. It is also a tradition for the bride-to-be to stay prior one month to the marriage inside her home. She cannot go anywhere. She cannot even sit in the sun outside. This is because fair skin is considered to be very attractive in India and for the girl to be fairer, she needs to stay inside. This is exactly what my cousin's friend did.

Now, I am of Indian ethnicity however thankfully my parents are going to follow the marriage process in Islam, and not the one above otherwise I would just....be oppressed!

Now, to enlighten poor Optophobia (and anyone else) on the marriage process in Islam, in contrast to the example I have just provided.

In Islam, you are allowed to go on a 'mini-date', exactly like you would do on a first date. Just to get to know the person, their morals, their standards etc. etc. Then afterwards, you can decide to marry that person or not. Let's get rid of the "arranged marriage" myth in Islam as this is simply not true [and certainly not oppresive compared to the Indian culture].

Now, the divorce on the women's part. IF a man decides to divorce his wife then ok, they're divorced. HOWEVER, if he desires to remarry her HE has to wait UNTIL she has married someone else and has divorced husband #2 (or 3 or 4 or whatever).




Get it?



Got it?



Good.




Now let's see if anyone can figure out which scenario is the "oppressive" one. Sometimes I really wonder....

hm... tats old school.. india's culture is becoming less oppressive. Also thats mainly or has strong ties with Hinduism. Once again this does not show that islam is not oppressive towards women.

 

[sam04u]

I would argue that a culture that tells women that they should be modest to such a measure, even if the populace for the most part agree's with it, is being oppressive.

Please do. Explain how a religion suggesting that if you want to be apart of the religion you should be modest is oppressive. I would argue with that, the common misconception is that these women 'have' to do anything. It's not the womens obligation to 'be a muslim' in Australia. They can choose to be whatever religion they like, they also have the protection of the government (if the only risk is alienation from the family). It's more than possible and is the way it's always been. Practicising modesty is very much a good thing, and it doesn't lead to the perversion of popular culture. (porn or pornographic images, or images which DISPLAYS women in DEMEANING outfits, doing DEMEANING ACTS, is actually worse for women in my opinion.) Ofcourse it is the womens right, and Islam respects that, so long as they're not apart of Islam.

It may be different in another country where the main religion is Islam. They have the right to make laws which govern the way the overwhelming majority of society feels should exist. If the government represents the people then what is wrong with that besides it conflicting with YOUR opinion.

Do you get what I'm saying? If lets say another culture existed where women were 'encouraged' to do as they please. Where sexual acts took place in the streets, unprotected, and people sodomised one another. Could they look at our community and say... "The government opresses you guys, you guys are poor guys, you don't even have the right to do what we do."

It's freaking stupid. Islam does not opress women.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Well I said a culture and for the most part I do believe that most women in Australia are not affected by such a culture, tho some may be. If you are a child raised in a family where you are told to be extensively modest from a very young age (covering your hair etc) and this continues into your teenage years (when I feel most parents should lax a little on their controls) then I would submit that you are being oppressed. Your family/religion is putting alot of pressure onto you to do something/act a certain way.

Practicising modesty is very much a good thing, and it doesn't lead to the perversion of popular culture.

The 'perversion' of popular culture you say?

porn or pornographic images, or images which DISPLAYS women in DEMEANING outfits, doing DEMEANING ACTS, is actually worse for women in my opinion.)

No I disagree and I also don't think that it necessarily has to be one or the other (i.e. there is a third option, respect for women and no oppression on their sexuality/body image etc).

It may be different in another country where the main religion is Islam. They have the right to make laws which govern the way the overwhelming majority of society feels should exist. If the government represents the people then what is wrong with that besides it conflicting with YOUR opinion.

So if the overwhelming majority of Australia wants to round up all muslims and kill them, that's ok and other countries should just butt out?

Could they look at our community and say... "The government opresses you guys, you guys are poor guys, you don't even have the right to do what we do."

Yes they could and I'd hope we'd be willing to have a discussion with them.

It's freaking stupid. Islam does not opress women.

Well it's hard to say exactly what 'islam' does, but I'd say look at the adherants and in the majority of self professed muslim-run nations, alot of what we have achieved in western society in the way of womens rights is not there. I don't think this necessarily means the religion is evil (it's just a text to me) but I do think the religion is used as a tool to continue to reinforce the patriarchal structures.

 

[Optophobia]

Pre-1970's australia was oppressive for women, even if they did enjoy being in the house. The fact that they enjoyed it didn't make it non-oppressive it just showed that they were unenlightened and unempowered.

 

[HaBibi~]

ok i dont mean to kill the topic or anything, but i have a question.

within my research of shari'a law (sorry if the spelling aint right), i have noticed that the "age of consent" sexually in Iran is 9 years old for females. which aspect of Shari'a law permits this?

the only conclusion i have come up with is that Aiisha was 6 years old, when she and Mouhammad married, however 9 years old when he consummated the marriage, and therefore it is permissable for Muslims to also have sexual relations with girls of this age.

and also, while on the topic...what do muslims think about this age? do u agree with it? do u think women - i mean, children - are capable of engaging in sexual relations with usually middle aged adult men - not just physically, however, capable of making such decisions, or dealing with the emotions associated with sexual relations?

 

[HotShot]

It may be different in another country where the main religion is Islam. They have the right to make laws which govern the way the overwhelming majority of society feels should exist. If the government represents the people then what is wrong with that besides it conflicting with YOUR opinion.

who have the right to make laws? the people - or the religious fanatics?

 

[Kulazzi]

hm... tats old school.. india's culture is becoming less oppressive. Also thats mainly or has strong ties with Hinduism. Once again this does not show that islam is not oppressive towards women.

No they are not. India is still a strong traditional country. It may have ties with Hinduism but it is still commonly practiced in thir culture today.

Actually it does [answer to your last sentence]. For some reason, everyone has a myth that a girl in Islam is arranged into marriage at a young age, giving her no choice whatsoever. To dispel that myth, I just contrasted this with the Indian culture.

 

[Kulazzi]

ok i dont mean to kill the topic or anything, but i have a question.

within my research of shari'a law (sorry if the spelling aint right), i have noticed that the "age of consent" sexually in Iran is 9 years old for females. which aspect of Shari'a law permits this?

the only conclusion i have come up with is that Aiisha was 6 years old, when she and Mouhammad married, however 9 years old when he consummated the marriage, and therefore it is permissable for Muslims to also have sexual relations with girls of this age.

and also, while on the topic...what do muslims think about this age? do u agree with it? do u think women - i mean, children - are capable of engaging in sexual relations with usually middle aged adult men - not just physically, however, capable of making such decisions, or dealing with the emotions associated with sexual relations?

Since you are so interested, why don't you try and find a case study? I'm sure I cannot provide the psychological perspective on this. Obviously, the answer to all your questions are no. Or, the girl could just be really really really really really mature (as Hadrat Aisha [RA] would have been)

 

[Kulazzi]

Pre-1970's australia was oppressive for women, even if they did enjoy being in the house. The fact that they enjoyed it didn't make it non-oppressive it just showed that they were unenlightened and unempowered.

Why don't you just stop posting since you are clearly ignorant. Go yo your local Muslim society at UWS [whichever campus, if you need to come to Bankstown, I'll be glad to take you] and ask them.

Wait. You will be in for a surprise. Because the president is.....a female! (And no, it's not me).

 

[ElendilPeredhil]

Well I said a culture and for the most part I do believe that most women in Australia are not affected by such a culture, tho some may be. If you are a child raised in a family where you are told to be extensively modest from a very young age (covering your hair etc) and this continues into your teenage years (when I feel most parents should lax a little on their controls) then I would submit that you are being oppressed. Your family/religion is putting alot of pressure onto you to do something/act a certain way.

Perhaps this is oppression, but if that is the case, then every child in Australia is oppressed! My parents taught me to have respect for my elders, to obey the law, to be open minded about other cultures.
I am oppressed. There is a lot of pressure on me to not behave like a feral.
They are taking away my right to believe that it is okay to swear at adults!
They took away my right to be a bigot!
bastards. and my parents are atheists...the opression spreads.
I would also ask why modesty should be lacking in the teenage years? That doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[HotShot]

Perhaps this is oppression, but if that is the case, then every child in Australia is oppressed! My parents taught me to have respect for my elders, to obey the law, to be open minded about other cultures.
I am oppressed. There is a lot of pressure on me to not behave like a feral.
They are taking away my right to believe that it is okay to swear at adults!
They took away my right to be a bigot!
bastards. and my parents are atheists...the opression spreads.
I would also ask why modesty should be lacking in the teenage years? That doesn't make much sense to me.

If people tell you do to do things for reasons that are explained and that make sense and that are good for you - then that is not oppression. Teaching is not oppression, is Oppression is being forced to somethin, because of peer pressure political influences.

You are not oppressed they only taught you - they never can stop you from doing it. and if they do force you to stop then u r oppressed but trust me generally parents arent like that - they make you understand and its up to you to trust it or not.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Perhaps this is oppression, but if that is the case, then every child in Australia is oppressed! My parents taught me to have respect for my elders, to obey the law, to be open minded about other cultures.
I am oppressed. There is a lot of pressure on me to not behave like a feral.

Well if your parents continue to put immense pressure on you to 'have respect for your elders' even once you are a teenager I would say they are being oppressive. When you're a child of course parents should hold alot more sway, but as you grow into a free-thinking adult any ethics should be discussed, not enforced with vigorous pressure.

I would also ask why modesty should be lacking in the teenage years? That doesn't make much sense to me.

It doesn't have to be, but it should be the girl's choice. The parents can of course object and try to explain to the girl why they think she should dress more modestly, but I would see moves to punish her for not dressing modestly or to make her feel degraded for not dressing modestly to be unjust oppression.

 

[ElendilPeredhil]

Well if your parents continue to put immense pressure on you to 'have respect for your elders' even once you are a teenager I would say they are being oppressive. When you're a child of course parents should hold alot more sway, but as you grow into a free-thinking adult any ethics should be discussed, not enforced with vigorous pressure.



It doesn't have to be, but it should be the girl's choice. The parents can of course object and try to explain to the girl why they think she should dress more modestly, but I would see moves to punish her for not dressing modestly or to make her feel degraded for not dressing modestly to be unjust oppression.

yep that would be oppression...but Islam is not like that. Religion is a personal choice amongst true believers...so whilst muslim parents would be slightly more concerned about modesty, and they believe that covering the hair is modest, Islam doesn't teach that parents should force their children to follow the religion, as each persons relationship with God is private.

 

[HaBibi~]

Since you are so interested, why don't you try and find a case study? I'm sure I cannot provide the psychological perspective on this. Obviously, the answer to all your questions are no. Or, the girl could just be really really really really really mature (as Hadrat Aisha [RA] would have been)

really really really mature? at age 6? mature enough to comprehend the aspects of marriage or engaging in sexual relations? mature enough to accept the responsibilities and duties associated with such a relationship, and the emotional and spiritual implications associated with it? and mature enough to be the "temptress" in the relationship, with for example, a 50 year old man?

i've got a great case study.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2006/s1705231.htm

(a demonstration of the laws based on Shari'a in Iran)

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

just a fact for you men and women are treated equally and if the girl chooses to have sex then she does get punished for it AND the man gets the same punishment...

so please stop giving one sided point of views when it is clear that you dont even know what the religion is about

 

[HaBibi~]

just a fact for you men and women are treated equally and if the girl chooses to have sex then she does get punished for it AND the man gets the same punishment...

so please stop giving one sided point of views when it is clear that you dont even know what the religion is about

one sided points of view? im asking questions! i expect answers! sorry for wanting to know more about your religion...

about your claim that women get equal punishment. i don't suppose you've seen the documentary that i provided the link to above. Atefah (the girl in the documentary) recieved the sentence of being hanged - without getting the chance to see her family - because of "crimes against chastity" - and she was raped by the man. what did the 50 year old man recieve?

a few lashings.

equal punishment indeed.

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

well in our religion both get same punishment and if those countries dont follow it dont go around saying its islams fault

also i wasnt just talking about you ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha

most of your answers should be ^

 

[HaBibi~]

well in our religion both get same punishment and if those countries dont follow it dont go around saying its islams fault

also i wasnt just talking about you ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha

most of your answers should be ^

well their laws are based on Shari'a, and Shari'a law is based on the Qur'an.

just a quote from the source u provided to me:

"Aisha accused of adultery
Aisha was traveling with her husband Muhammad and some of his followers. She left camp in the morning to search for her lost necklace; when she returned, she found that the company had broken camp and left without her. She waited patiently for half a day, until she was rescued by a man named Safwan and taken to rejoin the caravan.

Malicious tongues started to wag, claiming that she must have been having an affair with Safwan. "

she must be having an affair with Safwan. not the other way around. an example of women being the temptresses at age 9.

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

Status as "favorite wife"
Even though the marriage may have been politically motivated, to mark the ties between Muhammad and his companion Abu Bakr, most early accounts say that Muhammad and Aisha became sincerely fond of each other. Aisha is usually described as Muhammad's favorite wife, and believed to have been his only virgin wife. Shi'a Muslims would disagree with this description, regarding it as politically motivated. They adduce the following episodes as proof that Muhammad and Aisha's marriage did not always go smoothly.

 

[HaBibi~]

i dont get which part is relavant? :S