left and right wingers - im confused! (1 Viewer)

[mr EaZy]

I was dead in the middle for Authorative and Liberal but more towards the left on the across axis.

That political compass is a good diagram to explain the differences in politics, it shows the difference between Socialism and Communism which gets mixed up often.

so ur like me

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Yes asquithian, however what you need to realise is that often these days workers are under the same conditions as many employers, white collar workers.

Blue collar workers often these days have investment properties, are being treated fairly by their business and want it to succeed..
It's no longer us against them.

 

[Generator]

We should always remember why employees/workers are being treated fairly (by and large), though.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I'm talking about the general makeup of australian society, there aren't many cubical workers and such that are stuck in that 1 job... and there probably aren't many that don't have their own things to manage (property, investment, etc).

 

[Comrade nathan]

It's no longer us against them.

The class war (by saying "us against them you have basically admit there is class war) never nullifies untill there is no longer any classes.

What post modernist haven't seen is that in happen in Australia and other western nations is that the working class position (the lowest strata in relation to the means of production) have been transfered to third world countries. Imperialism (neo globalisation, neo liberalism, neo colonalism) has created a greater advantage then in Colonial times to produce cheaper by cheap labour. The class war is now a anti imperialism war in the third world.

Ofcourse there are small working class here that are paid the lowest wage possible, and there is still a lumpen proleteriat like in every imperialist nation.

 

[loquasagacious]

Comrade Nathan makes a good point.

There is some irony in his position on the compass, in that it is just about as far (authoritarian-ally) from Stalin a man whose politics he espouses and reputation he upholds...

 

[Bone577]

The compass, while interesting is flawed. I don't think I need to say this, and I cringe in doing so since it sounds cliche, but it is all a matter of perspective.

I also don't think there is anything centrist about "free market" economics. I don't understand how you can go any more right than total integrationalist (another term for "free market", much like the term "free market" it is propogandistic in nature) as far as economics goes. Correct me if im wrong, but total left in economics would be total state control, and complete right would be the complete lack of tarrifs/subsidies/state intervention etc.

 

[loquasagacious]

Yes Bone577, political compass shows this on the east-west axis of the compass and social conservative versus social liberal is expressed on North-South axis.

I personally think the compass to be quite accurate.

As far as the perspective issue, you are approaching it the wrong way... political feelings can be expressed on one spectrum ranging from progressive, revolutionary/radical, conservative and regressive.

You can then apply this to any instance. Eg revolutionaries want to take change society radivcally believing that at its core it is flawed, progressives want to make small changes believing society to be at its core good, conservatives support the status quo believing society to be just about right, regressives believe that society should revert to a previous state.

So yes a progressive in the middle ages does believe differing things to one now. Eg then it was revolutionary to have a helio-centric solar system now it is the status quo to believe this.

 

[chubbaraff]

I would have to answer on the subject of "us-against-them" That it is still this way. Well atleast if anyone can claim it wasnt it will be very soon. The fact is the us against them factor is not noticed because of the deformation of unions under Labor. By modern definition, I think we cannot define racism and this is the origin of the dissagreement in this thread. Not-that-bright's best argument against the left is that this guy said I had a black friend or some shit like that. What defines racism is not whether you say someone is black or not but rather whether when you look at someone the issue of race even comes to your mind. The right and not that bright have long progated this myth, if you ask anyone from One nation they will tell you that welfare is racist because it favours Indigenous people. This thread will enjoy none of the sort because we are students who know better, and I would have thought not that bright would have too... I think the issue of comrade Nathan is that he has a certain pride with being a member of the CP. He cannot come to the conclusion that Stalin was an autocrat. I really do think Marxism/Trotskyism with a dash of Leninism is the best alternative for the genuine left. And if anything the compass proves anything, it sthat the authoritarian left is a dead and despotic trade that is not propogated by anyone in australia atm. When people realize that level of conciousness they will realize that the only next logical step is to join a revolutionary party who fights for human emancipation. This thread has also ranted on about the individual. The individual is the poorest eliment in society who, on reflection of themself sees nothing else but a means of competition and betterment. There is nothing humanitarian about the individual. The cause of socialism is the emancipation of workers so that, they may grow and learn as an individual, this can only be satisfied if they are protected from the outreach of corporations, the next logical extension fo the individual. Corporations with there goal of uneven profit distribution, will always be reactionary to the general cause of worker emancipation and on this level only are individuals suppressed.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

chubbaraff, you've misinterpretated what i've said and basically dismissed it straight away..

If you've read "the case against capital" by Lawrence Eubank you might see marx's economic thinking in a different light.

 

[chubbaraff]

I May one day read that book but for the moment the case is definately clear, theyve attacked PBS, theyve attacked Unis, theyve attacked Unis, and the best is yet to come, Class warfare! ITS ON!!

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Class warfare? who the hell is starting the class warfare?

The greens who want to save some tree's for some rich people to see when they go to tasmania for a week, at the expense of hard working people's jobs?

Labor who decides to in the middle of an election campaign announce they'll take funding from private schools?

Or the liberals who are looking out for the economy which has both social and economic effects for all of us?

 

[chubbaraff]

Correction the second Unis was supposed to read unions

Dont claim to know shit about Marxism, like your previous post read because if you did, you would realise that the environmental struggle is intrinsic to the class struggle. It is not the fact that loggers are hard working that is disputable, it is a matter of our bullshit economic system that drives these workers into an industry that produces premium grade furniture for the people who can afford it, and I dont think they are laborers on 450$ a week. Rampant consumerism is only the beggining of the degredation of our market driven society that you propagate. And the fact is i support none of those parties. Im a member of the Socialist Alliance. So I am right in declaring class warfare because none of those parties, except the greens on some issues go close to representing a true alternative to barbaric capitalism. The rpivate school issue was right, I go to a modest private school, 2.5k/year, no hall, not enough class rooms, the schools on the list were that were more then well off, they had more then an access of resources and you cant deny that when students accomodated in the ideal secular public system go without text books, SHAME. Even though i dont champion the cause of labor that was ideologically correct. Get a bit of compassion.. or get the hell out of Australia, I cant believe I share the same colour passport as you.

 

[chubbaraff]

Correction
second last line reads, the cause of labor, (commar) that as ideologically correct.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

chubbaraff, don't think for a moment that I don't value the environment. As much as you'd like to think otherwise, i too hate drinking dirty water or not breathing clean air.

I should of guessed you were a member of the socialist alliance. Alot of people i find that go that far to the left often suffer from intellectual arrogance, they are (or at least feel they are) fairly smart people to the point where they look at socialist policies and claim that they can work when even the most basic mind can look at it and see the faults.

Listen to your shit "get a bit of compassion or get the hell out of australia".

 

[chubbaraff]

I stick by that 100%, the individual in society and not the individual who works for society will always be the person who putting themself forward, trample all over peoples right to a dignified existense, the left serves to protect these people. Intellectualism is exclusive to conciousness. For class conciousness I have but Intelligence, no, I leave that to the right winger and their latest revolutionary, yet useless trinket! Ive always been a team player, and these forums will not reconcile that big ideological chasm between us. I dont hate you, rather I feel sorry for the fact that you profess such a barbaric doctrine. The importing thing for me about socialism is that it expresses confidence in other people, solidarity, something you never will or never have had until you embark on an inner revolution and see a better approach to injustice, which of course comes second to the individual, yeh?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Confidence in other people?!
you don't want to privatise things because you don't trust your fellow man and i could go on..

By the way, feeling 'sorry' for me is you yet again showing the intellectual arrogance the left has developed.

 

[chubbaraff]

Thats right, we dont want to privatise because we have confidence that society can run its necessary institutions efficiently without the need for individualists to appropriate the value it creates, this value should be shared. eg Westbus vs state buses! We know how that story ends

 

[chubbaraff]

http://webdiary.smh.com.au/archives//000680.html If you interested in what Howard has done to Uni's, that sources Not Happy John, a book written by disgruntled liberals and mild leftists

 

[Jonathan A]

there's been two or three threads on right wing and left wing (politics or otherwise).

can someone tell me what they are? i need to know where i stand (if anywhere )

doesnt sound like much i reckon,
thanks in advance

Sociologically:

Right wing means conservative (resist to change), Middle is Liberal (change only where necessary or progress), and Left means Radical (change at will).