Merlin... again (2 Viewers)

[Jillie]

I agree with Merlin's first message. I think it was increadibly brave (and in no way agressive) what he did, to go in front of millions and express his opinion the way he did. And of course it has everything to do with him. I saw somewhere that he had put in for his Australian Citizenship before Big Brother...

His second one was just silly tho - althougth I agree with that message as well, that wasn't really the time to be doing it.

As for the comments made about aboriginal people and their attitudes.. I grew up in a small country town that is known for its 'aborignial population' - and have many friends that are aboriginal, my mother works at an aboriginal corporation. ETC. What I want to say is that aboriginal people don't 'isolate themselves' for the sake of pissing people off. The fact is, they are a different people, with a different culture (to us). A culture which was taken away from them - and cant be given back just like that, whoever said about clearing the land and making them live like they used to - so technically, the present government isn't at fault for the wrongs that were done before (stolen generation etc) - but the leader of the country, the same country that took away their culture, should be showing sympathy and, for gods sake, just appologise for the wrongs that were done, and as a result of those wrongs, still being done.
It is not just aboriginal people who she the situation as a 'black vs white' issue. It is not all one sided here.
And, I cant remember if it was mention before (but it usually always is in a discussion like this) - but there are aboriginal people who have made a go of it, and got somewhere, and aboriginal people who are in the process of doing this. There are aborignials who are proffesionals. Aboriginals "positvely contributing" to Australia. Why you must focus on a percentage of them who are in the jails, or comitting crimes, is just... odd.
It makes you stop and think if maybe their attitudes of "us vs them" are not so completley ridiculous. Or one-sided.

Oh, and twistedd - if a 'white' boy died in the way that the little boy did in Redfern - of course it would make the papers. And if the mother of this white child thought that the police, or a policeman, was to blame - there may not be riots, but there would certainly be outrage and media coverage.

 

[katie_tully]

Fuckit man!

Let's just all go overseas and cause politcal uproar.
Why?

BECAUSE WE CAN, APPARENTLY!

 

[Katjif]

Yes yes ok, that was more like $1 worth..but hey it's value for money!

 

[Tommy_Lamp]

the whole TJ Hickey thing was bullshit...he had commited a crime, he panicked and ran away from police WHO WERENT EVEN LOOKING FOR HIM and killed himself...it is the police's duty to catch criminals, and thats what they were trying to do...there were people out there looking for any reason to riot and this happened, there u go...its the same thing that happens when a guy in a stolen car is chased by police and then he crashes and people say the cops shouldnt of chased him, of course they should have, ITS WHAT THERE PAID TO DO...nuff said

 

[Tommy_Lamp]

and Jillie, the problem with what happened WAS the riots, not the outrage, there always will be when a kid dies

 

[thorrnydevil]

Katjif-I totally agree with you about everyone having an opinion and they can express that. We where getting carried away over a debate NOBODY will ever win-we're all simply too divided. However, perhaps you don't understand what I'm trying to say. Merlin has been living in Australia since childhood. For 6 years of that time illegaly. He has had the opportunity on sevral occaisions to become an Australian citizen. This would also allow him to vote. Are we clear so far? You lived in Canada, good for you. Did you have the chance to become a citizen? Yes, I comment on the millitary, economic, social and political policies of many countries, but, I don't have a choice to become a citizen to vote in the elections of these countries. Merlin was a citizen of another country and voted in the elections of that country (I assume he voted at least-but with his track record who knows!). We don't have this choice. He did, and he abused this. BTW, i think anyone who decides not to vote in the American elections shouldn't be able to comment on the government who they didn't vote in. Neway, as you said, thats my opinion.

Crazyhomo-If you looked at what I posted properly you would of seen that I did say he would of had more of a voice on TV. But, then I said he's not using his DEMOCRATIC voice, meaning he cant vote, not his voice box voice-OK? In the future, if you still cant read properly, please dont comment. Maybe you should take tWiStEdD's advice and join a political party, preferably the greens, so you can distort the facts, and we'd never have to see you in government.

tWiStEdD-I like you. Standing up for what you believe in and what is right. If YOU ever go for parliament you've got my vote, which has been granted to me by being a citizen of Australia.

yulia-I envy you so, so much.

Now for my opinions on the "sorry" issue.
I don't feel that we as a society should apologise for what our ancestors did. They genuinely thought it was right, and in some of the cases it was (I said some). However, it was appalling what happened, but its not our fault. If the Labor Party wants to apologise good on 'em. If they do get into government then for your sake they do apologise, but while ever the Howard govt. is in power they will not apologise because thats what the majority of people wanted in 2001.

 

[Jillie]

and Jillie, the problem with what happened WAS the riots, not the outrage, there always will be when a kid dies

Duh. I get that - but someone said that if it was a white boy - it wouldnt make the paper... Like there wouldnt be that much of a reaction to it. Perhaps not to the same extent as what happened there - but IMO there would definately be a big reaction to it.

On this "Sorry" issue - please. I think if I hear one more person say that they thought what they were doing was right when they took children away...
I don't believe that, I believe it was pure racism - but, just because these people thought they were right - didn't make it right. And the fact is, it wasn't. It wasn't right. Taking children away from their parents, because they are 'black' will never be right. It was racism. And because of the actions of 'our ancestors' - racism still occurs, and the leader of our country - our voice - IMO should appologise for both.

 

[crazyhomo]

Crazyhomo-If you looked at what I posted properly you would of seen that I did say he would of had more of a voice on TV. But, then I said he's not using his DEMOCRATIC voice, meaning he cant vote, not his voice box voice-OK? In the future, if you still cant read properly, please dont comment. Maybe you should take tWiStEdD's advice and join a political party, preferably the greens, so you can distort the facts, and we'd never have to see you in government.

Dictionary.com says:
de·moc·ra·cy n. pl.
The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

that sounds to me that what he was doing was pretty democratic. ie. you are trying to make a distinction that isn't there

 

[Katjif]

Thornydevil: Yup point taken, I didn't realise that Merlin had the opportunity to take out Australian citizenship. In that paticular case then, I believe that he probably should have, before commenting on all these issues.

With regards to the stolen generation,do people actually believe that it was pure racism back then? I'm just putting the question out there..I just, hey some may call it naivety,but I believe that they really felt they were doing the right thing. I've read quite a lot of the documents from then, and although it was without a doubt, one of the most stupid things to do, they thought it was for the best.
We have to remember that in the time, Britain and the British way of life was considered the only way to be, and that their choice to remove Aboriginal children was not to harm them. Rather, they felt it was 'educating' them.

oh and Yulia? Had you punched Merlin, perhaps this debate would have died down a lot earlier! haha oh isn't hindsight great?

 

[tWiStEdD]

in another 50 years, what we believe now will be a thing of the past. moral and values change so rapidly that much, if not all, of history, is immoral.

White Australian landowners were trying to 'civilise' a race which was seen as backward, i was under the impression that while we were devoted to white supremecy, we seemed to try and give Aboriginal people a role in our society. We still make judgments on cultures, if you havent noticed. Iraq and Afganistan to name a few.

Its sad that we think we need to assimilate races that we percieve as lower than us. For example Globalisation (not that i'm totally against it, i just think we're losing some priceless cultures)... however, the irony of globalisation is that those we once thought below us are taking over (China and India for example) those who were once their lords and masters.

Karma, anyone?


homo: you're off track again. create your own thread for 'spot the errors is your fellow poster's grammar' in the meantime go chew on some razor blades.

 

[katie_tully]

haha what's this, twistedd for president?? ... I did not have sexual relations with that woman...

Fact is; Merlin is a toss. I don't like him. Do we go overseas and criticise the way other people run their country? No. So what gives Merlin the right? He's lived here a few years, big fukin deal, he isn't a citizen of this country. Why say 'yeah he has every right to say what he wants about whats going on in this country', if he doesnt have the descency to become a citizen and VOTE on these issues?
Who was the idiot who said "like one vote matters"...If every person had this view, the whole country would be more fucked up..."one vote doesn't matter, because it's only one, so why bother". Good work brain boy, go get your head out of your arse already.

We don't have an obligation to say sorry. We didn't storm this country, we didn't take children off their parents. If we did, then I agree, we SHOULD APOLOGISE. But we didn't. Why hang on an issue from before our time? If this is the case, let's go back a few thousand years and apologise to those who were conquered.

Chew on this..

I AM NOT SORRY. I offer my sympathy to those who have been affected by the past events. But I am not sorry.

 

[crazyhomo]

homo: you're off track again. create your own thread for 'spot the errors is your fellow poster's grammar' in the meantime go chew on some razor blades.

pot. kettle. black.

you keep going on about how i am continually going off track to win a small victory. got irony? and notice how the only people backing you up on this are the one's that are rather stupid and aren't able to back up their flawed logic when i question them on it. everyone else has called me "the only person who provides the most objective and logical points", i have "very strong arguments" and that i am also "right".

so, i ask you, explain to me how disputing a person's key argument, that is definition of democracy, is spotting an error in grammar

 

[crazyhomo]

Fact is; Merlin is a toss. I don't like him. Do we go overseas and criticise the way other people run their country? No. So what gives Merlin the right? He's lived here a few years, big fukin deal, he isn't a citizen of this country. Why say 'yeah he has every right to say what he wants about whats going on in this country', if he doesnt have the descency to become a citizen and VOTE on these issues?
Who was the idiot who said "like one vote matters"...If every person had this view, the whole country would be more fucked up..."one vote doesn't matter, because it's only one, so why bother". Good work brain boy, go get your head out of your arse already.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

i just had to get that out of the way

anyway, what do you call invading iraq? obviously we did not like the way saddam was running his country. why else would we send out military over there? if that isn't the biggest criticism of a country, don't know what is.

merlin has lived in australia for over 20 years, every since he was 4. that's a little more than 'a few years'. and am i the only one who noticed that (according to your profile) that you are currently unable to vote? why are you even commenting, because you don't have a voice on these issues? oh yeah, that's right, you're a hypocritical fool. edit: after posting this it has come to my attention that thornydevil is also not able to vote. neither katie nor devil will be voting in the next federal election

and it doesn't matter whether we all have the opinion that out vote doesn't count, because guess what? we live in a country where voting is *compulsory*. between 90 and 95% of people elligible to vote do vote. so i'm sure in some fucked up country like america having most of the population believe their vote doesn't count is an issue, but it ain't in australia where one vote really does not count

 

[glycerine]

umm, on that note, i don't accept responsibility for the fact that 3 million of my ancestors died in the 1845-1847 period, because it was my other ancestors who did it, not me.
i love living life free of the responsibilities of the past.
oh, wait.

i don't really give a rat's ass about merlin, because it's his choice whether to become an australian citizen or not. i do think it's incredibly ignorant, short sighted and basically stupid that so many people seem unwilling to offer condolences for the heinous crimes of the past. condolence is not the same as personal guilt. jesus fucking christ.

 

[Nick]

Fuckit man!

Let's just all go overseas and cause politcal uproar.
Why?

BECAUSE WE CAN, APPARENTLY!

imagine, people going and protesting against human rights abuses and other assorted issues in countries where they dont vote

how very unheard of

oh wait apart from insignificant things like amnesty international, the red cross, the UN, greenpeace, etc etc

welcome to the 21st century

 

[katie_tully]

Merlin isn't Amnesty International, is he? Nah, I didn't think so.

As for Iraq, I have never once said I agreed with the invasion of Iraq. America caused the problem, they instated him. They've known for 30 years what he's being doing, and only now they decide to get rid of him once and for all. How convenient that America just happened to be in a recession before the war...Let's go storm an oil rich nation, because we're not stupid.
Secondly, what's me not being able to vote have to do with any fucking thing? Nothing. See, I don't have the choice, for another 12 months whether I can vote or not. Merlin had the choice. There's the difference.

Thirdly. Fuck saying sorry for something, I nor my family had nothing to do with.

And last but not least; My argument has never been that we should forget it ever happened. It did happen. Build a bridge and get over it, implement solutions that don't involve getting a new generation to say sorry, because honestly, if we do say sorry is that going to fix it?

When Canada said "sorry" to its natives, they turned around and sued the Canadian government for every penny they had, for admitting to doing wrong.
Did John Howards present Government cause the problems in the past? No. So why should they be obliged to say sorry? Why apologise for something YOU didn't do.
There are other solutions.

 

[nerd2die4]

Merlin isn't Amnesty International, is he? Nah, I didn't think so.

.

I think you are missing the point, merlin doesnt have to be amnesty international to have an opinion about politics. heaps of people do, and really its their right.

 

[tWiStEdD]

pot. kettle. black.

whatever floats your boat mate.

you keep going on about how i am continually going off track to win a small victory. got irony? and notice how the only people backing you up on this are the one's that are rather stupid and aren't able to back up their flawed logic when i question them on it. everyone else has called me "the only person who provides the most objective and logical points", i have "very strong arguments" and that i am also "right".

okay. how is it over there in dream land?

anyway, what do you call invading iraq? obviously we did not like the way saddam was running his country. why else would we send out military over there? if that isn't the biggest criticism of a country, don't know what is.

she speaks of individuals. i dont believe you had any say in the iraqi war, i dont believe you were involved in the iraqi war and i dont believe you currently support the iraqi war (or do you?).
i'm proud of you man, you sort of argued a point... we're getting somewhere

i love living life free of the responsibilities of the past.

i honestly dont think you believe yourself to be responsible for the stolen generation etc... do you?

i don't really give a rat's ass about merlin, because it's his choice whether to become an australian citizen or not.

correct.

i do think it's incredibly ignorant, short sighted and basically stupid that so many people seem unwilling to offer condolences for the heinous crimes of the past. condolence is not the same as personal guilt. jesus fucking christ.

you're right here too, but 'sorry' is not the same as 'i'm sorry that xyz happened to you'
i dont believe we should take responsibility, but by all means... offer condolances.... i just think everyone who feels that way inclined should write a personal letter. its not fair, nor appropriate, to expect howard to apologise on our behalf.

Nick:
point taken.
Its actually something that Michael Moore is copping flack for right now, from the Canadians.
Its okay to make a point to an individual or a group, but it is inappropriate to get up on a grandstand and start a rally of sorts. there's a subtle difference, but it exists... i think that's what katie is talking about.

those organisations are extremely important we all know that. i dont think even evil people like myself, like katie, would say anything different.

haha what's this, twistedd for president?? ... I did not have sexual relations with that woman...

good idea you think? we'll see, we'll see. hahaha. i dont suppose you want the job of secretary?

 

[katie_tully]

Thing I love about this is;
in 12 months time, just like Sara Marie, nobody will give a flying fuck who merlin is and what merlin did.
amen.

 

[nerd2die4]

I dont think you can compare the 'bum dance' to merlins political message.