muslims prove they're not backwards lunatics; leaglise child marriage (1 Viewer)

[SerNichols]

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[SerNichols]

As for the thread itself, is the decision being made by "Backward Muslim Lunatics"? NO! The article itself names three individuals who condemn this idea, are they also "Backward Muslim Lunatics"?

Please, do not attempt to attack and ridicule an entire religion based on the views of a minority that *may* implement rules that you don't agree with.

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[SerNichols]

I have done my research, I have read the quran cover to cover several times and have been muslim for most of my life.

That is the fucking problem that people think that is perfect, him fucking a 9 year old makes people think that is an okay thing to do which it's not.

Also thanks for putting words in my mouth, I never said 2 billion people are blind or all muslims are lunatics. I said that certain people are using Mohammed's actions with Aisha as a proxy to have sex with children.

Did Muhammad marry A’isha when she was only nine years old?
Contemporary critics have repeatedly claimed that Prophet Muhammad married A’isha when she was not of age. Facts indicate that A’isha was no younger than 12-13 at the time of her willing marriage with parental consent. We invite the reader to consider several factors before formulating a final opinion.
Before we delve into Islamic history, consider that the age deemed “acceptable” for marriage is not an objective standard across time, culture, and religion—but a subjective standard based on social construct. For example, the Catholic Encyclopaedia reports regarding Mary, mother of Jesus:
… the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice of God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place.[1]
Likewise, the Talmud states, “Marrying off one’s daughter as soon after she reaches adulthood as possible, even to one’s Slave.”[2] In fact, the Talmud presents some shocking guidance on marriage, also stating, “A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition, and if her deceased husband’s brother cohabits with her, she becomes his.”[3] So while the Catholic Encyclopaedia tells us that Mary and Joseph were married at the ages of 12-14 and 90, respectively, the Talmud permits marrying girls as young as three years and one day. Lest this seem like an attack on Christianity and Judaism—which it is not—we present marriage laws in the West.
For centuries in Scotland, the age of consent for girls was 12—and parental consent was unnecessary.[4] Only in 1929 was the age raised to 16 for girls.[5] But in America even today, A’isha’s consenting marriage to Prophet Muhammad would be considered valid. For example, in New Hampshire, the legal age for girls is 13 with parental consent.[6] In Massachusetts, the legal age for girls is 12 with parental consent.[7] In Mississippi, there is no age minimum for girls, as long as there is parental consent.[8] In California, there is no age minimum for girls, as long as there is parental consent.[9]
Granted, the American state laws were passed in the 19th and 20th centuries—not today. And granted, American’s aged 12 or 13 do not typically get married today. The point still stands, however, that even in recent American history, American’s found value—not objection—in marrying at 12 or 13, or even younger, and passed laws through their state legislatures to affirm their value. This exercise in no way argues for a return to such marrying ages. Rather, it merely establishes the point that “appropriate” marriage age is based on social construct—not some supposed objective, advanced contemporary standard. Therefore, if we are to accuse Prophet Muhammad of any impropriety in marrying A’isha even if she was 12-13, then we must also condemn the Old Testament, New Testament, the Europe, and numerous American states.
Above discussion demonstrates that A’iha’s marriage to Prophet Muhammad, even if she was 12 or 13, was not by any means unusual when compared across time and culture—even to contemporary standards. Now we shall demonstrate that the assertion that A’isha was only nine is meritless.
In determining authenticity of the related tradition (Hadith), it is necessary to consider how many different narrators can relate a Hadith back to the original source—be that source Prophet Muhammad, A’isha, or a companion. The more narrators exist and the more in agreement they are with one another—the more authentic we may consider the Hadith.
Virtually every narration that relates A’isha’s age at nine is tied to Hisham ibn ‘Urwah, who then reports on his father’s authority. This is problematic for several reasons.
First, Hisham ibn ‘Urwah is the only person to narrate this Hadith. This is problematic because now, no opportunity exists for corroboration. Next, Hisham related this Hadith in his old age—a time during which he admits he suffered severe memory loss. For example, Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, a premier book on the credibility of Hadith narrators cites Ya‘qub ibn Shaibah to report, “Narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq.”[10] Likewise, “Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq.”[11] History records that Hisham emigrated to Iraq in his old age and suffered severe memory loss, after living in Medina for the first 71 years of his life.[12] More specifically, Yaqub ibn Shaibah relates, “He [that is, Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after shifting to Iraq.”[13]
The Hadith that relate A’isha’s age at nine are from Hisham ibn ‘Urwah after he immigrated to Iraq. Thus, such Hadith are not only isolated in their claim, but also unreliable due to his old age and extensive memory loss.

On the contrary, several historical events and Ahadith narrations demonstrate that Hadhrat Ayesha was likely 19-20 at the time of her consenting marriage to Prophet Muhammad.
Likewise, most historians report that Hadhrat Asmara, Hadhrat Ayesha’s elder sister, was ten years her senior.[15] The books, “Tahzibut Tahzib” and “Al-Bidaayah wa an-Nihayah,” both report that Hadhrat Asma died at the age of 100, in 73 A.H. or 695 A.D.[16] This means that Hadhrat Asmara must have been no younger than 27 at the time of emigration. Hadhrat Ayesha’s marriage to Prophet Muhammad was in 1 A.H. when Asma was 28. This means that at a minimum, Hadhrat Ayesha was 18 upon her consenting marriage to Prophet Muhammad.
The above examples are not exhaustive. Several other authentic Hadith and well-recorded events discredit allegations that Prophet Muhammad married A’isha when she was nine. The examples we have presented, however, should more than suffice that A’isha was not nine, but instead, that she was a mature adult who married Prophet Muhammad of her own free will.

 

[Graney]

LOL please, idk what you have read, but I thought you would know more about the religion you once preached since you read 'cover to cover', but clearly you don't. At that time it was normal for girls to get married at the age of 9-12, and her previous offer of marriage to a non believer is further evidence for this. Muslims didn't only marry young;the daughter of the leader of the Jews, Hulai in Ahtal, marred another jew at the age of '10' before she converted to Islam. So stop being so stereotypical and hating on 'Muslims'. And our prophet Mohammed(peace be upon him) marrying a 9 year girl only started being questioned within the last 50-60 years, meaning it never was an issue before. However, times change, I certainly don't agree with marrying at that age.* An English Historian stated, "At that age 'A'ishah was fully developed, through fast development which was present amongst the Arab women of the time and where they would start to age during the late twenties. But this marriage has troubled many people about Muhammad. This is because they look upon the marriage as if it is in the present day, not taking into account the context of this marriage and that it was an accepted event. They do not consider that this trend is still present in Europe and Asia, until this very day. This was common in Spain and Portugal until recent years. Even in these times it is not uncommon. In some mountainous areas in the United States of America, it still exists." I wanted to share that with you, because even the historian is saying this, we should not be ashamed of the age of 'A'ishah when she married. It is the context and trends of the times that dictate the correct time of marriage for a girl. We follow the trends of the times, as long as they do not contradict with our beliefs. If the trends show that the similarity in age between husband and wife is important, then we should follow that. A girl now at nine years, is still a child. We respect our climates and our environment.

Saving this comment from edit, for it's helpful insight into when it is morally good to marry and seduce a nine year old. The answer is always, except the last 50-60 years.

Presumably with this new Iraqi law coming in, it will again be fine to marry a 9 year old, I mean it is the zeitgeist, why not?

As the above post explains, pedophilia is only wrong now because of the zeitgeist, but as the old saying goes, when in Baghdad...

 

[Balls2u]

Did Muhammad marry A’isha when she was only nine years old?
Contemporary critics have repeatedly claimed that Prophet Muhammad married A’isha when she was not of age. Facts indicate that A’isha was no younger than 12-13 at the time of her willing marriage with parental consent. We invite the reader to consider several factors before formulating a final opinion.
Before we delve into Islamic history, consider that the age deemed “acceptable” for marriage is not an objective standard across time, culture, and religion—but a subjective standard based on social construct. For example, the Catholic Encyclopaedia reports regarding Mary, mother of Jesus:
… the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice of God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place.[1]
Likewise, the Talmud states, “Marrying off one’s daughter as soon after she reaches adulthood as possible, even to one’s Slave.”[2] In fact, the Talmud presents some shocking guidance on marriage, also stating, “A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition, and if her deceased husband’s brother cohabits with her, she becomes his.”[3] So while the Catholic Encyclopaedia tells us that Mary and Joseph were married at the ages of 12-14 and 90, respectively, the Talmud permits marrying girls as young as three years and one day. Lest this seem like an attack on Christianity and Judaism—which it is not—we present marriage laws in the West.
For centuries in Scotland, the age of consent for girls was 12—and parental consent was unnecessary.[4] Only in 1929 was the age raised to 16 for girls.[5] But in America even today, A’isha’s consenting marriage to Prophet Muhammad would be considered valid. For example, in New Hampshire, the legal age for girls is 13 with parental consent.[6] In Massachusetts, the legal age for girls is 12 with parental consent.[7] In Mississippi, there is no age minimum for girls, as long as there is parental consent.[8] In California, there is no age minimum for girls, as long as there is parental consent.[9]
Granted, the American state laws were passed in the 19th and 20th centuries—not today. And granted, American’s aged 12 or 13 do not typically get married today. The point still stands, however, that even in recent American history, American’s found value—not objection—in marrying at 12 or 13, or even younger, and passed laws through their state legislatures to affirm their value. This exercise in no way argues for a return to such marrying ages. Rather, it merely establishes the point that “appropriate” marriage age is based on social construct—not some supposed objective, advanced contemporary standard. Therefore, if we are to accuse Prophet Muhammad of any impropriety in marrying A’isha even if she was 12-13, then we must also condemn the Old Testament, New Testament, the Europe, and numerous American states.
Above discussion demonstrates that A’iha’s marriage to Prophet Muhammad, even if she was 12 or 13, was not by any means unusual when compared across time and culture—even to contemporary standards. Now we shall demonstrate that the assertion that A’isha was only nine is meritless.
In determining authenticity of the related tradition (Hadith), it is necessary to consider how many different narrators can relate a Hadith back to the original source—be that source Prophet Muhammad, A’isha, or a companion. The more narrators exist and the more in agreement they are with one another—the more authentic we may consider the Hadith.
Virtually every narration that relates A’isha’s age at nine is tied to Hisham ibn ‘Urwah, who then reports on his father’s authority. This is problematic for several reasons.
First, Hisham ibn ‘Urwah is the only person to narrate this Hadith. This is problematic because now, no opportunity exists for corroboration. Next, Hisham related this Hadith in his old age—a time during which he admits he suffered severe memory loss. For example, Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, a premier book on the credibility of Hadith narrators cites Ya‘qub ibn Shaibah to report, “Narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq.”[10] Likewise, “Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq.”[11] History records that Hisham emigrated to Iraq in his old age and suffered severe memory loss, after living in Medina for the first 71 years of his life.[12] More specifically, Yaqub ibn Shaibah relates, “He [that is, Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after shifting to Iraq.”[13]
The Hadith that relate A’isha’s age at nine are from Hisham ibn ‘Urwah after he immigrated to Iraq. Thus, such Hadith are not only isolated in their claim, but also unreliable due to his old age and extensive memory loss.

On the contrary, several historical events and Ahadith narrations demonstrate that Hadhrat Ayesha was likely 19-20 at the time of her consenting marriage to Prophet Muhammad.
Likewise, most historians report that Hadhrat Asmara, Hadhrat Ayesha’s elder sister, was ten years her senior.[15] The books, “Tahzibut Tahzib” and “Al-Bidaayah wa an-Nihayah,” both report that Hadhrat Asma died at the age of 100, in 73 A.H. or 695 A.D.[16] This means that Hadhrat Asmara must have been no younger than 27 at the time of emigration. Hadhrat Ayesha’s marriage to Prophet Muhammad was in 1 A.H. when Asma was 28. This means that at a minimum, Hadhrat Ayesha was 18 upon her consenting marriage to Prophet Muhammad.
The above examples are not exhaustive. Several other authentic Hadith and well-recorded events discredit allegations that Prophet Muhammad married A’isha when she was nine. The examples we have presented, however, should more than suffice that A’isha was not nine, but instead, that she was a mature adult who married Prophet Muhammad of her own free will.

TL;DR

 

[SerNichols]

..

 

[hit patel]

Isn't this going way too far. I am surprised but then disappointed that the moderators are allowing this. Nicols you need not argue. This thread is superfluous in the way its views are 'thrown' out.

 

[SerNichols]

Isn't this going way too far. I am surprised but then disappointed that the moderators are allowing this. Nicols you need not argue. This thread is superfluous in the way its views are 'thrown' out.

^

 

[hit patel]

^

Yes I am against the ridiculuous comments about religion. Its all politics fault.

 

[Parvee]

Yes I am against the ridiculuous comments about religion. Its all politics fault.

lolwut

 

[SerNichols]

I find it quiet amusing, the fact that they are in their 20s-30s and yet so racist/narrow minded.

 

[Graney]

Isn't this going way too far. I am surprised but then disappointed that the moderators are allowing this.

I know right, I can't believe the mods would host SerNichols offensive pro-pedophilia advocacy.

 

[SerNichols]

I know right, I can't believe the mods would host SerNichols offensive pro-pedophilia advocacy.

If you read the posts , I clearly stated I disagree with it. btw just out of curiosity, are you an athiest or?

 

[kaz1]

Did Muhammad marry A’isha when she was only nine years old?
Contemporary critics have repeatedly claimed that Prophet Muhammad married A’isha when she was not of age. Facts indicate that A’isha was no younger than 12-13 at the time of her willing marriage with parental consent. We invite the reader to consider several factors before formulating a final opinion.
Before we delve into Islamic history, consider that the age deemed “acceptable” for marriage is not an objective standard across time, culture, and religion—but a subjective standard based on social construct. For example, the Catholic Encyclopaedia reports regarding Mary, mother of Jesus:
… the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice of God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place.[1]
Likewise, the Talmud states, “Marrying off one’s daughter as soon after she reaches adulthood as possible, even to one’s Slave.”[2] In fact, the Talmud presents some shocking guidance on marriage, also stating, “A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition, and if her deceased husband’s brother cohabits with her, she becomes his.”[3] So while the Catholic Encyclopaedia tells us that Mary and Joseph were married at the ages of 12-14 and 90, respectively, the Talmud permits marrying girls as young as three years and one day. Lest this seem like an attack on Christianity and Judaism—which it is not—we present marriage laws in the West.
For centuries in Scotland, the age of consent for girls was 12—and parental consent was unnecessary.[4] Only in 1929 was the age raised to 16 for girls.[5] But in America even today, A’isha’s consenting marriage to Prophet Muhammad would be considered valid. For example, in New Hampshire, the legal age for girls is 13 with parental consent.[6] In Massachusetts, the legal age for girls is 12 with parental consent.[7] In Mississippi, there is no age minimum for girls, as long as there is parental consent.[8] In California, there is no age minimum for girls, as long as there is parental consent.[9]
Granted, the American state laws were passed in the 19th and 20th centuries—not today. And granted, American’s aged 12 or 13 do not typically get married today. The point still stands, however, that even in recent American history, American’s found value—not objection—in marrying at 12 or 13, or even younger, and passed laws through their state legislatures to affirm their value. This exercise in no way argues for a return to such marrying ages. Rather, it merely establishes the point that “appropriate” marriage age is based on social construct—not some supposed objective, advanced contemporary standard. Therefore, if we are to accuse Prophet Muhammad of any impropriety in marrying A’isha even if she was 12-13, then we must also condemn the Old Testament, New Testament, the Europe, and numerous American states.
Above discussion demonstrates that A’iha’s marriage to Prophet Muhammad, even if she was 12 or 13, was not by any means unusual when compared across time and culture—even to contemporary standards. Now we shall demonstrate that the assertion that A’isha was only nine is meritless.
In determining authenticity of the related tradition (Hadith), it is necessary to consider how many different narrators can relate a Hadith back to the original source—be that source Prophet Muhammad, A’isha, or a companion. The more narrators exist and the more in agreement they are with one another—the more authentic we may consider the Hadith.
Virtually every narration that relates A’isha’s age at nine is tied to Hisham ibn ‘Urwah, who then reports on his father’s authority. This is problematic for several reasons.
First, Hisham ibn ‘Urwah is the only person to narrate this Hadith. This is problematic because now, no opportunity exists for corroboration. Next, Hisham related this Hadith in his old age—a time during which he admits he suffered severe memory loss. For example, Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, a premier book on the credibility of Hadith narrators cites Ya‘qub ibn Shaibah to report, “Narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq.”[10] Likewise, “Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq.”[11] History records that Hisham emigrated to Iraq in his old age and suffered severe memory loss, after living in Medina for the first 71 years of his life.[12] More specifically, Yaqub ibn Shaibah relates, “He [that is, Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after shifting to Iraq.”[13]
The Hadith that relate A’isha’s age at nine are from Hisham ibn ‘Urwah after he immigrated to Iraq. Thus, such Hadith are not only isolated in their claim, but also unreliable due to his old age and extensive memory loss.

On the contrary, several historical events and Ahadith narrations demonstrate that Hadhrat Ayesha was likely 19-20 at the time of her consenting marriage to Prophet Muhammad.
Likewise, most historians report that Hadhrat Asmara, Hadhrat Ayesha’s elder sister, was ten years her senior.[15] The books, “Tahzibut Tahzib” and “Al-Bidaayah wa an-Nihayah,” both report that Hadhrat Asma died at the age of 100, in 73 A.H. or 695 A.D.[16] This means that Hadhrat Asmara must have been no younger than 27 at the time of emigration. Hadhrat Ayesha’s marriage to Prophet Muhammad was in 1 A.H. when Asma was 28. This means that at a minimum, Hadhrat Ayesha was 18 upon her consenting marriage to Prophet Muhammad.
The above examples are not exhaustive. Several other authentic Hadith and well-recorded events discredit allegations that Prophet Muhammad married A’isha when she was nine. The examples we have presented, however, should more than suffice that A’isha was not nine, but instead, that she was a mature adult who married Prophet Muhammad of her own free will.

I don't really care if Aisha was 19 or 9 or if the practice of pedophilia was moral back then, the fact of the matter is that it sure as hell isn't moral NOW. The problem is that certain Muslims are using the example of Mohammed fucking a 9 year old because they believe that it happened and they are using that to marry/rape children today.

Thankfully most Muslims today find fucking a 9 year old immoral but there are insane people today that justify this horrendous practice because they believe that their dear beloved prophet did it.

Again to reiterate I don't care what Mohammed did or if it was moral then, the problem is that certain muslims today are using this piece of scripture to justify what they are doing and are applying the morals of the 7th century Arabian desert to today.

 

[sabz1996]

He stated that he disagreed with it like most of us do. The point is, the decision in Iraq hasn't even taken place yet and even the article has three people disagreeing with it. Why don't you understand that this is a MINORITY?

Also, please, who compares the situation of over 1400 years ago to today?

Times were different, conditions were different, ideologies were different.

 

[SerNichols]

I don't really care if Aisha was 19 or 9 or if the practice of pedophilia was moral back then, the fact of the matter is that it sure as hell isn't moral NOW. The problem is that certain Muslims are using the example of Mohammed fucking a 9 year old because they believe that it happened and they are using that to marry/rape children today.

Thankfully most Muslims today find fucking a 9 year old immoral but there are insane people today that justify this horrendous practice because they believe that their dear beloved prophet did it.

Again to reiterate I don't care what Mohammed did or if it was moral then, the problem is that certain muslims today are using this piece of scripture to justify what they are doing and are applying the morals of the 7th century Arabian desert to today.

LMAO WTF, then stop with your nonsense, your ridiculing a whole religion due the actions of a small number of people. This law isn't even official. Also I'm pretty sure its not just 'Muslims' justifying this horrendous practice. Read what i posted above mate. I don't support pedophilia, nor do i agree with people being married at that age. You can't ridicule a whole religion due to the actions of the minority. I think its about time you go ridicule "Christianity" and how the pope molests young girls.

 

[nerdasdasd]

Quite amusing that your reply is only a profanity and you can't argue. And besides, I'm not going to bother anymore.

Here here.

 

[SerNichols]

He stated that he disagreed with it like most of us do. The point is, the decision in Iraq hasn't even taken place yet and even the article has three people disagreeing with it. Why don't you understand that this is a MINORITY?

Also, please, who compares the situation of over 1400 years ago to today?

Times were different, conditions were different, ideologies were different.

Exactly, fucking different times and society.

 

[nerdasdasd]

LMAO WTF, then stop with your nonsense, your ridiculing a whole religion due the actions of a small number of people. This law isn't even official. Also I'm pretty sure its not just 'Muslims' justifying this horrendous practice. Read what i posted above mate. I don't support pedophilia, nor do i agree with people being married at that age. You can't ridicule a whole religion due to the actions of the minority. I think its about time you go ridicule "Christianity" and how the pope molests young girls.

Here here, all religions have the minorities that do bad things under guise of "religion name".

Need I mention all the catholic schools that have had past fucking child abuses and molestations?

 

[Graney]

If you read the posts , I clearly stated I disagree with it. btw just out of curiosity, are you an athiest or?

Why do you disagree with it? You've clearly stated it was accepted in the prophet mohammeds time, and that if he hypothetically had married a 9 yesr old, you would still believe he is the most perfect person to ever live.

If child marriage was legal and socially accepted today, would you accept the beliefs and practices of those married to children? If you had lived in the prophet mohammeds time, with the knowledge and morals you have today, would you still accept those who practiced child marriage? If you had met the prophet mohammed, and he had told you he intended to marry a child (as was the style of the time), would you see any thing wrong with this decision?

As for my religion, I am a ashkenazi Jewish.