Russia 'goes to war' with Georgia (2 Viewers)

[Admiral Nelson]

Hah, you think this is the first forum I've been to?

 

[*Baby-K*]

I have not read the whole post - since I gotta study so I don't know the opinions you guys hold nevertheless can I just say that the news that we are getting here in Australia are so biased against Russia? I speak Russian and French so I get the advantage of reading what other countries have to say so here it goes:
Russia did not 'invade' Georgia, it went in to rescue South Ossetia which Georgia are very keen on since S.Ossetia does not want to be under Georgian government so they decided to use force. Most of south ossetians have kept their russian passports and therefore they can be counted as Russian citizens. Isn't it clear that Russia will not invade it's own citizens?
Secondly there are many things that are not said about Georgian president and his deeds of the past. It would be fair to say that he is a lunatic and extremely cruel. Not long ago he made his misstress get an abortion when she was in her 3rd trimester- that's practically murder. Another thing- he is making Georgians fight this 'war' through conscripting people. Many teenagers our age in universities are forced to stop their studies and do something they don't want to otherwise they are put in jail for 2-4 years.
When they show you the little clips on the news with grandma's saying 'they invaded us, they burnt our house etc' have you ever questioned who 'they' is? or did you automatically assume that they-means Russia? Have you ever thought about why the European Union won't back US? Did you also know that Georgia had a revolution before the elections so Saakashvili resigned and then forged papers to be re-elected again. Now seriously if people have just rebelled against him do you think they would re-elect him?
Yes Russia is still in Georgia and they do not intend to keep it, they are making sure that once they take their troups out that the same thing doesn't happen again. If Russia is so againt Georgia then why would they be providing medical help to Georgian soldiers? why would they take their refugees in? and why would South Ossetia come to Russia for help if Russia is so horrible?
The US is on very thin ice atm with the recession and it wouldn't be very hard for Russia with the help of EU to fold the US economy.
All I am saying is- don't believe what you see on the news because there is so much more to the story. BBC, CNN and ABC news will all show you what americans want to see and hear - Russia = bad. When the truth comes out US is gonna look like an idiot backing up a lunatic like Saakashvili.

 

[Admiral Nelson]

Russia did not 'invade' Georgia, it went in to rescue South Ossetia which Georgia are very keen on since S.Ossetia does not want to be under Georgian government so they decided to use force. Most of south ossetians have kept their russian passports and therefore they can be counted as Russian citizens. Isn't it clear that Russia will not invade it's own citizens?

As much as I support Russia in this case, I've got to say that had they moved into South Ossetia exclusively then they would have been protecting citizens, but moving out into Georgia is an invasion. Those South Ossetians with Russian passports didn't "keep" them, but rather, were given them a few years ago so Russia would have an excuse to do exactly what it has done if Georgia used force.

Secondly there are many things that are not said about Georgian president and his deeds of the past. It would be fair to say that he is a lunatic and extremely cruel. Not long ago he made his misstress get an abortion when she was in her 3rd trimester- that's practically murder.

A morally reprehensible and questionable politician? I don't believe it.

Another thing- he is making Georgians fight this 'war' through conscripting people. Many teenagers our age in universities are forced to stop their studies and do something they don't want to otherwise they are put in jail for 2-4 years.

Most of Russia's soldiers who fought in Georgia and nearby Chechnyia are conscripts too, who face similar penalties for refusing the draft. Living in Australia, we associate conscription to Vietnam and the failed attempts in World War One, and don't have a history of it. In Europe, however, it's an entirely different story, many European nations have had a system of peacetime conscription for over a hundred years, and the rest have used wartime conscription. Germany and Austria still have theres, Italy got rid of it within the last decade and Spain got rid of it a few years ago, France about twenty years ago. So conscription is an accepted part of affairs in Europe.

Have you ever thought about why the European Union won't back US?

...Uhm, what? They kind of are supporting the US.

Did you also know that Georgia had a revolution before the elections so Saakashvili resigned and then forged papers to be re-elected again. Now seriously if people have just rebelled against him do you think they would re-elect him?

You mean the rebellion of two hundred soldiers in a Georgian barracks a few years back? That was a dispute over pay and conditions, if I remember correctly, and the majority dispersed peacefully. And many times in history have people lost a massive amount of favour and been re-elected at a later point.

Yes Russia is still in Georgia and they do not intend to keep it, they are making sure that once they take their troups out that the same thing doesn't happen again. If Russia is so againt Georgia then why would they be providing medical help to Georgian soldiers? why would they take their refugees in? and why would South Ossetia come to Russia for help if Russia is so horrible?

They're obliged to, that's why. They might be enemies but they're still people, who share a reasonably close cultural tie. It's the way warfare works, especially as this isn't a "do or die" war for Russia, it loses nothing by treating injured soldiers but would lose a lot if it got out that the Russian forces were letting them die, as even pro-Russian countries would be appalled. And why would South Ossetia come to Russia? Because there's no one else to go to, even if Russia were so horrible, they'd still go to it.

The US is on very thin ice atm with the recession and it wouldn't be very hard for Russia with the help of EU to fold the US economy.

You do just realise you're suggesting that it's easy to collapse the single largest economy on Earth? And you do realise that Russia sees Europe in the same light as it sees the US, and that Europe is very much pro-American even if it has issues with how America is doing things at the moment. That's just infeasible, let alone economically impractical, as Europe's economy is suffering almost as much as the US's.

[QUOTE[All I am saying is- don't believe what you see on the news because there is so much more to the story. BBC, CNN and ABC news will all show you what americans want to see and hear - Russia = bad. When the truth comes out US is gonna look like an idiot backing up a lunatic like Saakashvili.[/quote]

You're basically right, bar the lunatic Saakashvili part, but he's definitely made a major miscalculation. Our media is to quick to play the "Russia is the bad guy" trumpet, though, SBS did a decent job.

 

[Riet]

Turkish journalists being shot at by Russian troops:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=VSFRiHbFEtg

 

[ObjectsInSpace]

 

[Riet]

Alaska is right next to Russia , just 50 miles. Anything flying over that area is bound to catch the sharp and precise eyes of American Radar. Still, we dont see Russians patrolling the east coast of North America, nor the west coast of America, where as America patrol almost all seas of the world, including Black Sea, Berring Sea and baltic Sea, showing the military superiority of US over Russia.

Russia cannot compare with US on anything, military, economy, science, technology or innovation.

Accept the fact that USA is superior to Russia in all respects, and will always be.

I'm not gonna read the whole thread, but they aren't "forced" to scramble, it's standard procecdure and they do it quite often. happens in norway and shit all the time.

Here's an awesome photo of an F-22 Raptor escorting a Tupolev out of North American airspace. The F-22 had to open its bomb-bay doors so it could be detected on radar.
http://www.air-attack.com/MIL/f22/f22_tu95bear.jpg

More info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-95#Encounters_in_the_air

But yeh, it's not uncommon and they would be shot down in a second, if they wanted to.

 

[Admiral Nelson]

I'm not gonna read the whole thread, but they aren't "forced" to scramble, it's standard procecdure and they do it quite often. happens in norway and shit all the time.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-95#Encounters_in_the_air

But yeh, it's not uncommon and they would be shot down in a second, if they wanted to.

Oh yes, I agree. I said "force" in that it's more a matter of pride than anything else for the Americans to scramble, rather than let another nation fly in it's airspace. And yeah, both the American and Russian bombers would get shot down in an actual combat situation, but the flights are just sabre rattling and aren't intended as anything more.

As to the shooting at journalists, I'm honestly surprised more aren't killed in warzones. Russian troops are known for many things but their discipline and identification abilities certainly isn't one of them, and in a warzone, it gets very hard to tell who's who, especially as the Georgians had to make use of a lot of civillian vehicles.

It happened at the beginning of the year in Israel. A Palestinian journalist was filming a tank from about half a kilometre away when it opened fire, actually caught this on tape, and killed him. When you put a black object on your shoulder, roughly the size of a anti-tank missile, and point it at a tank, though, I'm not surprised. Especially as people in desperate situations (I.E Palestinians and Georgians) can resort to some pretty unconventional means to inflict casualties...

 

[Riet]

Lol, I'd like to see them shoot down a B-2 as easily as a Tupelov...

 

[Admiral Nelson]

Actually the latest set of RADARs for the SAM's from Russia actually have a decent chance of detecting stealth aircraft. Which is really to be expected, you can't really develop a technology without having a counter developed for it at some point.

It's not very effective at the moment and the chance is still quite low, but it's a decent chance compared to the options they had prior. The technology is being worked on feverously, especially as Russia's stealth fighter is still a few months away from flying and at least two years off from any kind of production.

 

[HNAKXR]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7562611.stm

 

[Admiral Nelson]

The article is quite right - the Russians really don't know how the manipulate the media. For sixty years as the Soviet Union they never had to - and now they've been thrust into a world in which America has been manipulating the media for a similar amount of time. They've lost the propaganda battle in Georgia for sure.

Though, it must be noted, that in some of the seemingly more logical EU nations they've actually taken the facts in to consideration, weighed them up with their dealings with Russia, and found the resulting conclusion to be that a hardline against Russia isn't worth it. Germany, never really one to be scared of saying things to Russia, is being pretty quiet for a reason...

And Mcain's "We are all Georgians now" statement has reaffirmed my suspicion that he's nothing more than another Republican warhawk, who shall hopefully be eschewed.

 

[Riet]

Nah, low range radar can detect F-117s in rare cases, but B-2s are still undetectable for the most part, until they open their bomb-bay doors, by which time it's too late (since they fly at a high altitude where a SAM wouldn't be able to reach them in time).

 

[Admiral Nelson]

I personally think it's redundant. The B2 has a huge unit cost, and the fact is that the US can't lose any at all on bombing raids, which they certainly would. Similarly, cruise missiles are replacing quite quickly the job that large bombers such as the B2 would otherwise do.

That, and with each day, anti-missile technology only improves.

 

[Riet]

Cruise missiles are expensive as shit, and can be shot down. As better SAM systems become more widely available stealth and low radar-signature (semi-stealth) aircraft will become invaluable.

 

[Iron]

At the same time our people grumbled for more washing machines and nylon stockings

 

[Admiral Nelson]

As you may have guessed, I'm not a military theorist, but from what I can gather it looks like the age of the stealth fighter mighn't be all that long. There's not much further you can go down the line and missile technology can only catch up. And I'd imagine that as time goes by the massive investment represented by bombers such as the B2 will begin to make them far less desirable in a proper combat situation.

 

[Iron]

It's not as though Russia's not being hypocritical itself
More Chechnya, anyone?

 

[Riet]

As you may have guessed, I'm not a military theorist, but from what I can gather it looks like the age of the stealth fighter mighn't be all that long. There's not much further you can go down the line and missile technology can only catch up. And I'd imagine that as time goes by the massive investment represented by bombers such as the B2 will begin to make them far less desirable in a proper combat situation.

Ya, but if its the choice between maybe getting shot down and definitely getting shot down, I know what I'd rather.

 

[russs]

Georgia / Russia

I know there is already a Georgia / Russia thread, but still:

http://www.videosift.com/video/Fox-News-12-Year-Old-Girl-Tells-the-Truth-about-Georgia

Its a disgrace the way the media turned Russia into the aggressor in Western Nations.

 

[dno]

I found some articles, which I think describe the situation quite well.

One on the loosing of the "media war"
http://exiledonline.com/the-cnn-effect-georgia-schools-russia-in-information-warfare/#more-291

Another, which preaty much sums up the conflict very well (I think)
http://exiledonline.com/south-ossetia-the-war-we-dont-know/#more-316

Long-ish but easy to read, lol