The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed (1 Viewer)

jennyfromdabloc

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'Criminals' are not just a homogenous group. Its a question of quantity. Minimising access to guns = minimising amount of criminals who can obtain guns. It's not a case of either the 'criminals' (whoever they might be) have guns or everyone does.
When the government brings in a law that says guns are illegal, and unauthorized possession may result in jail time, all law abiding citizens will by definition surrender their guns.

Criminals who do not respect the law and have less fear of sanctions like imprisonment will still be determined to get guns. Even if the government succeeds in stopping say 50% of criminals that want guns getting them, it will successfully stop 99-100% of law abiding citizens from having access to guns.

As a result, law abiding citizens still end up more vulnerable and the criminals who are able to circumvent the law and still get guns actually benefit because they can now terrorize people without fear of retaliation.

Consider the situation from the perspective of a criminal who has managed to get a gun. Are you more likely break into someone's house if you know they almost certainly do not have a gun, or if there is about a 50/50 chance that they will be armed and may shoot you?
 
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ad infinitum

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If both the criminal and the 'innocent' parties have guns then there is a much, much higher chance of resulting causalities or deaths. Imagine a service station robbery, a criminal enters with a gun, now if the service attendant pulls out a gun, then they will both be forced to shoot (or else risk being shot), and the odds are stacked in favor of the criminal. However, if only the criminal has a gun, he merely uses it as a threat; and is not forced to use it. The same applies for house robbery's, fights, etc. Having everyone packing mac's isn't a good thing, it isn't 'safer' in any way. The criminal will always be first to draw, if the by-stander has a gun, then it is simply a greater motivation for the criminal to bust slugs to protect his neck.
 

Serius

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Yes, of course we should. We have a right to defend ourselves from harm. I am not talking about a legal right [although in most situations, we have that too] but a moral one, a law of nature i guess.

We have an unalienable and fundamental human right to protect ourselves from harm. It is hard to do this effectively without a weapon. Think of it as a force equaliser, seen as criminals arent going to care about laws regarding the carrying of guns, knives, bats whatever. If you cant defend yourself effectively without a certain type of tool [ a gun] then outlawing that tool is pretty much saying like you no longer have a right to defend yourself.

Thats pretty fundamental to my beliefs. I guess we could argue all day about wether guns make people safer, whether society is better or worse off without them, crime rates, whatever. None of those really matter to me. Even if guns made the world a much worse place in every possible way[and i dont believe they do] ti still wouldn't really care, simply because i believe we should have a right to bear arms and a right to use any means available to defend ourselves, our property and our family from harm.
 

David Spade

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Finland has an extremely large amount of guns and small amounts of crime and firearm related deaths. Therefore increased access to guns does not increase the rate of violence
 

jennyfromdabloc

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If both the criminal and the 'innocent' parties have guns then there is a much, much higher chance of resulting causalities or deaths. Imagine a service station robbery, a criminal enters with a gun, now if the service attendant pulls out a gun, then they will both be forced to shoot (or else risk being shot), and the odds are stacked in favor of the criminal. However, if only the criminal has a gun, he merely uses it as a threat; and is not forced to use it. The same applies for house robbery's, fights, etc. Having everyone packing mac's isn't a good thing, it isn't 'safer' in any way. The criminal will always be first to draw, if the by-stander has a gun, then it is simply a greater motivation for the criminal to bust slugs to protect his neck.
You seem to be assuming that criminals are nothing more than irrational, cold hearted killing machines.

Most criminals don't want to be forced into such situations where they may be forced to kill someone and to face the very severe consequences associated with murder. Even if as you say without evidence, criminals have the upper hand, there is still a significant risk that they will end up getting shot if they attack armed citizens. Surely a high risk of being killed is a pretty strong disincentive.

Your argument only makes sense if we assume a fixed number of armed robberies, in which case more deaths may occur because firearms cause the violence to escalate. The point is that most criminals don't want to have to kill people and face the sanctions associated with murder, and they don't want to risk being killed, so an armed population creates a strong disincentive to commit a lot of property crimes in the first place.

As for those analyzing international data:

If we want to estimate the ceteris paribus effect of gun control on crime rates, it is preferable to look at how changes in gun laws effect crime rates in a given country rather than looking at different countries with different laws, demographics and socio-economic factors that influence the data. Such data exists for Australia.

Analyzing this data is still complex, some crimes have increased while others have decreased. However, what is very clear from the data is that in the 13 years since these stricter guns controls were enacted there has not been a dramatic fall in the homicide rate. In the years following the enactment of the laws homicide rates rose, since the mid 2000's they have fallen again. But the fall has not been dramatic, and is merely consistent with a long term trend of falling crime rates in Australia which was in motion before the gun laws were enacted. If as some people suggest the homicide rate in the United States is higher than Australia because of gun control (and not other differences, some of which I mentioned) we should have seen a 70% decrease in the homicide rate by now!

Protecting gun rights does not mean anyone can walk down the street with an AK-47

Gun rights are just an extension of property rights. On your own property of course you should be able to own a gun. But similarly, property owners may also say that no one may have a gun on their property. In an ancap society, public places like streets and parks would be privately owned, and regulated in this way. In today's society, most public spaces are the property of local councils, so local councils should have the right to regulate the use of guns on their property. I suspect most councils would ban the carrying of guns (unless being transported in a locked case) on the street, and I would consider this entirely appropriate and fair.

It makes sense to regulate guns at a local level, rather than a national level because different communities have different needs. For example, in Kings Cross (a Densley populated nightspot in Sydney) it would make sense for the council to ban all weapons on the streets. Protection in such a dense area can be more efficiently provided by police and private security hired by businesses in the area. You also wouldn't want drunk people carrying around guns.

On the other hand, in say, remote areas of the Northern Terrority, there is very little police can do to protect people. It could take hours to provide any sort of assistance and that's if you can even contact the police at all. I would imagine that even staunch gun control advocates would probably wish they had a gun in the car if they broke down on the side of a remote road in the NT.

If people hate guns, they should also be free to create gun free communities. For instance, a new housing estate or apartment building could require anyone who purchases a property in the development to sign a contract agreeing that they will not bring any guns onto the property, even in their own homes.
 
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loquasagacious

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I must admit that in an ancap world where property rights forbade the carrying of guns in an area how that would be enforced? Are local councils expected to have (or have contracted with) a SWAT team who can forcibly oppose those who seek to carry a prohibited weapon in their community?

Let us say for example that there are two neighbouring towns, gun-town and no-gun-town. In an ancap world what stops individuals from gun-town, or even an organised militia from gun-town enacting violence against no-gun-town?

While I am sympathetic to the right to bear arms I am personally unsure of where the restrictions should be and how they should be enforced. For example if gun ownership is legal:
- Are there any guns which are illegal? Assualt rifles, sub-machine guns and machine guns spring to mind.
- Are there any weapons which are illegal? Skys the limit here, if a person can morally own a gun can they morally own a rocket launcher, tank, mortar, missile, howitzer or even a nuclear weapon?
- Who exercises the coercive force to enforce any restrictions?
- What level of violence is expected when an armed force attempts to enforce legal restrictions on another armed force/individual?
 

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Walking down a street with an Ak-47 is no different from driving down a street. Both are deadly if used irresponsibly. The only reason it would cause a fuss is because of panic.
 

SashatheMan

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By normal citizens having access to guns, it also allows the criminals to have guns. It's the most backwards argument NRA in the US make when they argue that guns keep people safe. If you increase the ability of people to inflict harm on others for everyone, that doesn't make anyone safe.

When it comes to Nuclear war ect, i am sorry but guns will not save you.
Go live in the US and build your self a bunker and hoard some guns.
 

Riet

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By normal citizens having access to guns, it also allows the criminals to have guns. It's the most backwards argument NRA in the US make when they argue that guns keep people safe. If you increase the ability of people to inflict harm on others for everyone, that doesn't make anyone safe.

When it comes to Nuclear war ect, i am sorry but guns will not save you.
Go live in the US and build your self a bunker and hoard some guns.
In Switzerland when you turn 20 they give you an assault rifle to keep in your home. Seriously I don't know if you noticed this but Australia already has a lot of illegal guns. 2 people were shot, 1 killed in melbourne over the weekend, and there were 157 shootings in Sydney between july 08 and 09. How does more legal gun owners increase the number of criminal owners?
 
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jennyfromdabloc

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I must admit that in an ancap world where property rights forbade the carrying of guns in an area how that would be enforced?
Private security firms. How would they be funded? With all the money people would save from not paying tax.

Are local councils expected to have (or have contracted with) a SWAT team who can forcibly oppose those who seek to carry a prohibited weapon in their community?
Under the current system the council's laws could simply be enforced by the existing state and federal police. It really would not be that hard to modify the existing laws to allow for this.

Let us say for example that there are two neighbouring towns, gun-town and no-gun-town. In an ancap world what stops individuals from gun-town, or even an organised militia from gun-town enacting violence against no-gun-town?
No-gun town's private security forces would be responsible for this. This is not an ancap debate. The implementation of anarcho-capitalism is not a necessary condition for the introduction of a right to own guns. If you want to talk about the effectiveness of private security firms, start another thread.

While I am sympathetic to the right to bear arms I am personally unsure of where the restrictions should be and how they should be enforced. For example if gun ownership is legal:
- Are there any guns which are illegal? Assualt rifles, sub-machine guns and machine guns spring to mind.
- Are there any weapons which are illegal? Skys the limit here, if a person can morally own a gun can they morally own a rocket launcher, tank, mortar, missile, howitzer or even a nuclear weapon?
- Who exercises the coercive force to enforce any restrictions?
- What level of violence is expected when an armed force attempts to enforce legal restrictions on another armed force/individual?
The sky is the limit. The main reason to have guns is to be able to defend ourselves from armies as well as criminals (see the OP for more on this). To do this ordinary citizens need to have access to the same sort weapons that armies have.

Data from the United States shows that when supposedly scary weapons like assault rifles are legal, they are very rarely used in firearm related crimes, with criminals almost always preferring small, cheap, easily concealed pistols.
 
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redmayne

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Hey jennyfromdabloc, go legalise guns, buy one, then shoot yourself. Or go live in the Deep South, I think you'd fit right in.
 

Riet

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Except for a few rare cases like the hollywood shoot out the only time Assault rifles are used by criminals is by drug cartels and shit, and somehow I don't think they are going to listen to government bans anyway. Oh wait, they don't. See: Mexico.
 

jb_nc

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Guns?

Libertarians, unite. To libertopia! Take the batmobile
 

Otacon2009

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Don't gun restrictions work because if you are not a law enforcement agent, farmer or sports official, you shouldn't be carrying guns full stop? Sure it's not going to deter criminals, but what would happen when they get caught with a firearm in public? They'll get charged with possession of illegal firearms without a license. The same way people get caught with deal bags of drugs.

Yet if guns were freely available, wouldn't it be easier for the potential criminal to justify why he has that gun in his pocket? "Oh officer. I just bought it to defend myself" and go robs the 7/11 once out of sight. I know it won't stop crims from buying them, but they must find someone who can then link them up with a gun. When they then buy the gun, they run the risk of being caught somewhere along it, whether it'd be tripping over and it falls out or the cops decide to search your car at a RBT because you were exhibiting the signs of someone who has something to hide (Cops are good at this).

I also noticed that school shootings are almost an annual occurance in the US. Last mass shooting in Australia resulted in the unarmed person fracturing the cheek of the shooter as he roundhouse kicked him. Sure knives are just as bad and more accessible as guns (and more concealble), however if (again) caught in public with these outside of being a chef, you don't really have much reason to be carrying them in public. This thing about self defence, aren't we all becoming a little scared that everything is going to shoot/stab us unless we shoot/stab first? And if we do need firearms to protect our homes, do we really need assualt rifles, shotguns and every other weapon group for the sake of stopping an intruder?
 

Riet

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Umm you're confusing private ownership and carry laws. If we had concealed carry, you would need a permit. If you were caught carrying without a permit you would be arrested.
 
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Whats with all these pasty upper-middle class internet warrior kids wanting guns? I can picture it perfectly;The 'goverment is oppresing my liberties' paranoia stench drips from their sweat as they are roasted by the glow of their up-late ron-paul youtube marathons.
 

loquasagacious

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Except for a few rare cases like the hollywood shoot out the only time Assault rifles are used by criminals is by drug cartels and shit, and somehow I don't think they are going to listen to government bans anyway. Oh wait, they don't. See: Mexico.
I recall a stat that most of the drivebys in LA (crips and bloods) are now done with assualt rifles but I accept your point.

Umm you're confusing private ownership and carry laws. If we had concealed carry, you would need a permit. If you were caught carrying without a permit you would be arrested.
Why have licenses/permits if they are legal?
 

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