VSU Protest Today (4 Viewers)

[Not-That-Bright]

I agree, i think there is a need for (GOOD) unions in larger organisations. However I feel it is wrong for workers in small businesses to be a part of a union, as it is more of a detrement and in a small business (in general) it is easy enough for a worker to negotiate their own contract.

Perhaps unions could also be important in franchises (such as fast food outlets, coles etc) that aren't exactly 1 single large organisation, but belong to one. However I wouldn't want them becoming too much of a detrement (i.e. pushing the price of food up for consumers), however i feel most of these businesses are fairly profitable.

I think it's more about a balance. But I definately don't support forced unionism, no matter what the organisation.

 

[walrusbear]

I also mean the workers unions, for instance when they go on strike, if ur a member of the union ur expected to go on strike and r shunned if you go to work. Also in my chosen career path unions arnt really relevant

so?
your path is what matters in the longrun?

 

[Generator]

edit: as generator said, the system will survive (which is a good thing), they may have to cut some redundant services (oh no! not become efficient) but on the whole vsu won't destroy unions (imo) AND at the same time university life will be made better for those who don't want to be a part of the union. So sure, university life will be slightly worse for pro union people (50%) but university life will be better for non-unionists too (50%).

As I said, the organisations will survive, but I doubt that they will continue to exist in their current form once VSU is passed (the SRC, arguably the most important, in particular). I believe that that is far from from being an ideal situation in that it will detract from the university experience in its entirety and have the potential to marginalise students and their interests something severe, yet you think that it'll trim the fat. That is a fair stance from your point of view, but it isn't something that I agree with.

Walrusbear appears to have covered the employees' unions and representation point, so there's no real need to dive into that debate. However, I will say that representation is forever needed because the status quo is forever fluid. You cannot just say that something is no longer of use because it has achieved its intended goals or shifted its focus when the conditions within which it operates are hardly constant.

 

[Korn]

so?
your path is what matters in the longrun?

Well yes it is important, but there are other important things in life too, such as the environment, promoting trades and support of education and welfare for those that CAN'T work

 

[Korn]

you're in Young Labor and voted against unions??
(VSU is NOT a vote for unions, i swear its bullshit. even the government isn't pretending it's a viable option, just some extra money in students pockets)

i joined usyd labor club last year
been meaning to join the party at some stage

We don't you join they contact u heaps and tell u about protests, and have meetings like everyweek, too bad most of these things are in the city and early in the morning

 

[Phanatical]

If you can't come to the meetings, you can't elect out people they don't like.

 

[Xayma]

May I ask for all these employees who will seemingly be laid off after the introduction of VSU, are their entitlements already financed? Or have years of mismanagement by unions going to result in services we have paid for being cut towards the end of this year?

 

[Rorix]

I have the following problems with many USU-advocates:

1. They deliberately mislead repeatedly.
2. They, ironically, use union funds to point out that they won't have as great funds with VSU.
3. They think that it is somehow coherant to believe that I want to pay for something but I have to be forced to do so.
4. They censor any form of dissenting opinion e.g. at sydney, the steps on the way to wentworth, the only piece of pro-VSU material I've ever seen on campus was quickly modified.

Any reasonable person would admit from an economic standpoint, that giving money to the union is a very inefficient allocation of resources.

Note that I have no problem with the actual benefits of USU that are threatened per se i.e. the suppoting of minority groups, legal aid, future expansion of union facilities etc. (although it is my opinion that the benefits of USU do not exceed the costs [socially and economically speaking]) but rather the downright corrupt way the campaign has been run in areas of deliberate misleading statements, failure to disclose conflicts of interest etc.

 

[Phanatical]

As long as they get more out of their membership fees than they put in, they're happy to continue milking us. Note that most of the money that goes to the SRC at our uni in fact pays for political points to allow them to get jobs within the Labor Party or even preselection for a seat in Parliament.

 

[walrusbear]

I have the following problems with many USU-advocates:

1. They deliberately mislead repeatedly.
2. They, ironically, use union funds to point out that they won't have as great funds with VSU.
3. They think that it is somehow coherant to believe that I want to pay for something but I have to be forced to do so.
4. They censor any form of dissenting opinion e.g. at sydney, the steps on the way to wentworth, the only piece of pro-VSU material I've ever seen on campus was quickly modified.

Any reasonable person would admit from an economic standpoint, that giving money to the union is a very inefficient allocation of resources.

Note that I have no problem with the actual benefits of USU that are threatened per se i.e. the suppoting of minority groups, legal aid, future expansion of union facilities etc. (although it is my opinion that the benefits of USU do not exceed the costs [socially and economically speaking]) but rather the downright corrupt way the campaign has been run in areas of deliberate misleading statements, failure to disclose conflicts of interest etc.

i still think that argument is stupid
the union would have no need to 'misspend' money defending itself were it not for VSU policy creating such a direct threat. what organisation wouldn't defend itself considering what is at stake?

i think the USU benefits are too valuable to the greater whole (you heard me) to undermine. the obvious flaws of the union should be addressed with real reform, not this cynical VSU shite.

 

[Sarah]

You go to university to get a university degree. There was once a time when university was not a social hub, and people went there and left. If you want extra things to make your "social interaction" more enjoyable, or for university to be an "enlightening experience", they are extra's that not everybody should have to pay for, if they arent going to use it. Not everybody is an art's student who feels the need to "discover" themselves and get drunk at the expense of other people.

Hmm... and to think that there are people who go to university to learn!

Ok, granted that you're not at uni yet, there's a few things you might find out when you go to uni.

Believe it or not, there's a lot you can learn outside lectures and tutorials. The social interaction is a great thing you get from joining clubs and societies and it also makes uni less lonely knowing that you actually have friends.

Also, lectures and tutorials are not going to teach you how to manage a team, how to work in a team, how to network with industry contacts or carry out event management. Those skills are aquired outside the classroom and many clubs and societies offer a ways for you to develop them.

And believe it or not, not all Arts students are like that. I have not met one who

feels the need to "discover" themselves and get drunk at the expense of other people

I do arts and have friends who do. I even have a friend who trasnferred out of commerce to do arts because she was interested what she could study in an arts degree and not because she felt the "need to discover herself" (although maybe doing commerce helped in deciding where her interests were)

Btw, i'm still confused as to how Arts students fit into this discussion

If all you want is a university degree, then do your degree through correspondence where for the majority of the time you don't have to physically go to uni.

Apologies if i'm sounding harsh here but for some people, uni is more than just a degree. Sure it helps you reach a goal but it's the experience that you get from uni which makes uni more than just a degree.

 

[walrusbear]

Hmm... and to think that there are people who go to university to learn!

Ok, granted that you're not at uni yet, there's a few things you might find out when you go to uni.

Believe it or not, there's a lot you can learn outside lectures and tutorials. The social interaction is a great thing you get from joining clubs and societies and it also makes uni less lonely knowing that you actually have friends.

Also, lectures and tutorials are not going to teach you how to manage a team, how to work in a team, how to network with industry contacts or carry out event management. Those skills are aquired outside the classroom and many clubs and societies offer a ways for you to develop them.

And believe it or not, not all Arts students are like that. I have not met one who



I do arts and have friends who do. I even have a friend who trasnferred out of commerce to do arts because she was interested what she could study in an arts degree and not because she felt the "need to discover herself" (although maybe doing commerce helped in deciding where her interests were)

Btw, i'm still confused as to how Arts students fit into this discussion

If all you want is a university degree, then do u degree through correspondence where for the majority of the time you don't have to physically go to uni.

Apologies if i'm sounding harsh here but for some people, uni is more than just a degree. Sure it helps you reach a goal but it's the experience that you get from uni which makes uni more than just a degree.

no it's very true and lost on most people here

especially tully, who is pretty clueless aside from offering the silliest of pro-VSU stances without having ever attended university

 

[Sarah]

Having said the above this debate between VSU and USU could go on forever. But simply put, it's about giving students an alternative option, something that wasn't available previously.

 

[walrusbear]

Having said the above this debate between VSU and USU could go on forever. But simply put, it's about giving students an alternative option, something that wasn't available previously.

or we could just embrace unionism and strive to improve it without sacrificing university culture, student representation and welfare.

the implications of this 'choice' is more than a yearly fee.
does anyone here really think politically beyond themselves anymore? (i know, i know, ironically most people think like that so trying to maintain community is selfish somehow )

please please please don't try to convince me that VSU will still allow for community AND choice. don't bother

 

[Sarah]

or we could just embrace unionism and strive to improve it without sacrificing university culture, student representation and welfare.

Oh we could but under the proposed reforms, the govt seem to be offering a "take it as it is or leave it" approach. I'm in favour of an alternative model to VSU that wouldn't having students either contributing the amounts as they are now or not.

the implications of this 'choice' is more than a yearly fee.
does anyone here really think politically beyond themselves anymore? (i know, i know, ironically most people think like that so trying to maintain community is selfish somehow )

Definately, the implications are more than just a yearly fee. But what i was referring to by choice was that under the old system, students do not have a say in if they want to be a member or not. In fact, at my uni, if we don't pay the membership fee, we're excluded in voting in the guild elections. I'm getting a bit off the track but what i meant by my comment on choice was that it's giving us an alternative to consider. We never had the opportunity to exercise the alternative under USU.

please please please don't try to convince me that VSU will still allow for community AND choice. don't bother

Well the community aspects i was referring to in my reply to katie tully was due to her comment on going to uni just for a degree. I don't know what the situation with their funds are (e.g revenue, net profit, sponsorship figures) but what Unions do should these reforms go ahead is seriously consider how their funds will be distributed to ensure that whatever community a uni has continutes to exist.

Edit: I do think that some form of community will exist but that it will be limited and will be heavily dependant on actions of the union once VSU is in place

 

[walrusbear]

imo you shouldn't be allowed to receive a university degree without paying union fees. at the moment, and up until now, university degrees have not been perceived as a mere product.
what sort of attitude to tertiary education is it that expects to be educated without any form of contribution to university culture? i would suggest that this 'choice' to avoid paying for university services, uni culture as well as student representation and on campus welfare demonstrates a selfish contempt for the whole education process.

 

[Sarah]

Ok, i hope i wasn't implying that university degrees were a mere product. By my previous posts, i hope you're aware of where i stand with regards to going to uni and getting a degree.

You mentioned university culture. That itself is a contentious topic on what university culture is. It depends on how u view culture.

Will the university culture be that much effected if there isn't a university culture to begin with? Will a strong university culture continue or will the choice to put ones needs first be a sympton that not everyone is supportive of what is out there? (btw, these are rhetorical questions, u don't have to answer them if u don't want to)

That's why i favour an alternative model instead of what's being proposed.

And don't get me started on student representation!

Uni education is already hard as it is under how admin currently works but that is a seperate topic from VSU/USU

 

[walrusbear]

Ok, i hope i wasn't implying that university degrees were a mere product. By my previous posts, i hope you're aware of where i stand with regards to going to uni and getting a degree.

You mentioned university culture. That itself is a contentious topic on what university culture is. It depends on how u view culture.

Will the university culture be that much effected if there isn't a university culture to begin with? Will a strong university culture continue or will the choice to put ones needs first be a sympton that not everyone is supportive of what is out there? (btw, these are rhetorical questions, u don't have to answer them if u don't want to)

That's why i favour an alternative model instead of what's being proposed.

And don't get me started on student representation!

Uni education is already hard as it is under how admin currently works but that is a seperate topic from VSU/USU

it's actually not. under VSU there is no student representation
something going under the radar of most supporters

i guess this view of culture debate really resides in whether you actually see the culture or not. this is one of those times where i feel that the democratic process fails. i mean, when individualist feelings reach the peak where the need to dislocate from community takes place on a large scale isn't there a serious problem?

that's how i feel anyway
not that it matters

vsu is will happen

 

[Sarah]

it's actually not. under VSU there is no student representation
something going under the radar of most supporters

i guess this view of culture debate really resides in whether you actually see the culture or not. this is one of those times where i feel that the democratic process fails. i mean, when individualist feelings reach the peak where the need to dislocate from community takes place on a large scale isn't there a serious problem?

that's how i feel anyway
not that it matters

vsu is will happen

Sorry i should've been clearer. When i mentioned uni administration, I was referring to student faculty board representatives and university administration within faculties i.e course structure, student-tutor ratios. I'll admit, i'm not sure whether VSU will impact on these matters but that's what i meant in my previous post.

 

[Meldrum]

I'm glad to see this post is rather essay-like in its approach:

- Introduction
- Bitchy arguement (including much snobbish mud-slinging from Thrushypants), and finally
- Resolution.

So, what've we all learned boys and girls? Not really that much. Some people with always agree with other like-minded people, and disagree with other unlike-minded people.

The past few, tamed, posts have hit my arguement on the head. I don't want VSU nor the current USU but a reform to the existing system. I don't get how there's a difference between people having to pay uni fees to go see professors and having to pay USU to use the things provided by the USU.

Hence, here's my manifesto for resolution:

1) Rather than making people pay the full price, created a tiered system whereby those who aren't on campus pay minimal fees, a person who uses some services to pay mid-range and those who use all the clubs pay maximum fees. Also, to have a CentreLink pensioners or low-income discount for holders of those cards

1a) Frig off, you may say, what's to stop someone from saying that they don't use any of the services then going ahead an using them? Well I'd say, with the fiercely-divided nature of student unionism, social pressure would stop people - Tall Poppies annonymous.

2) Prevent student unions from supporting political interests, Plato wrote extensively on this.

3) Please add more...these are just prelim ideas.