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Was just thinking the same thing :P

I guess this ties back to what I was talking about with 3unitz in that I first must of had to assume that value was actually meaningful and worth something. We must be careful though, because using an individual value/meaning system does not mean that an objective value system is immediately...

I'm not saying that meaning can't exist. I am saying that objective real meaning cannot exist without God. I'm talking about the sense of meaning most people believe to be true when saying "torture is wrong" and "life has value". It's my experience that when most people talk about these issue's...

So it seems you and I are in agreement then. For if you believe something is right for me, but wrong for you, then the value of "wrong" really doesn't mean anything at all - it's neutral. The problem that I have then is what is seemingly conflicting impressions I gain from atheists. If we are...

Whilst in many senses I actually agree with you here, would you like to elaborate and share why you have these beliefs as opposed to "it's true because I say it is". Also it's probably worth mentioning that I think you may have misunderstood my original point. My point was not to say that the...

okay you get I last reply because I <3 you :P I suppose they are only meaningful to me because I regard them as meaningful. This is also why I view it as a properly basic belief, since it is inescabable for me to view this issue outside of my own view of logic. Extremely problematic to answer...

Well if it were that that other God existed, then good could be defined differently. Goodness itself would be different. However such talks become confusing because it supposes that there could be another God than what there is, when in fact there can only be the God that there is. Hence what is...

I suppose it doesn't need to be the God of the bible at all, just one that fits with the characteristics I am proposing. So while "God" is fitting so could as equally "god".

Seems like a double negative kind of argument to make. On the one hand if value does exist then there is value in finding whether value exists. If not, then there is no value in finding out whether value exists. I suppose we must assume a level of properly basic beliefs in investigating any...

Right...because God committed "abominations" in the old testament and disqualifies himself from being a moral judge. A pretty standard argument, do you really want us to go through it all?

Well, either way, created or caused, I think the fact that a humans existence is temporary disqualifies them from any race in which their meaning ascription carries any worth. Plus, you know how I feel about ad hoc arguments, so a meh to that :P

Well, I am sorry as I am going to pose the inappropriate answer :P I necessarily know in my case, because if it were true that this were not the case then my argument would be void. To be honest I don't know where you are coming from. I am arguing that for meaning to be real, God with...

?. Humans are created even without a God. Possibly "created" is the wrong word. Caused as compared to uncaused is probably better terminology. Unless the atheist wants to deny a beginning and end of the universe (as current cosmology suggests) then I see no reason to think that this put them...

Well you can choose to believe that the value of life is a human construct but I feel as though you are seriously undervaluing it because you are making its value variable. If human life is valued only by what I value human life as, then what happens if I value human life at 0? I am in no wrong...

Maybe it is me that is misunderstanding you. If God does not exist, and meaning is only based on personal self validation then the theist needn't worry about alternative ways to self validate oneself since they are all as good as each other. Not to mention that the theist is out of a job! I...

Ahh well yes of course... but my argument the whole time has been that God is needed for true meaning to be real. If God did not create the universe, then there is no meaning. I fail to see your point since were not arguing about Gods existence at the moment. :P

You're entirely correct here. I was talking from the perspective of a rebuttal against what I presume was a Christian extract and hence personal God. It is entirely possible that a God could exist that creates us without giving a damn about whether we knew of it or not.

We can make an exception in the case of God because he is not a created being - and therefore there is no external validator source beyond himself (since he needs not be validated at all). This is as opposed to a created human who certainly does have a validator beyond himself.

These sort of arguments I must admit frustrate me to no end. "Somewhere, in the knowledge you haven't yet discovered, there could be enough evidence to prove that God does exist" is such a cop out in finding reasons for Gods existence. It could just as easily be argued that in the knowledge we...

Why should I not value Gods definition of value? :P My thoughts toward the issue would be that since God is the source of everything, then his is the definition of everything. morality, meaning/value etc.