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Does God exist? (14 Viewers)

do you believe in god?


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Iron

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Whatevs Cookie
I've long since accepted the futility in trying to
convert
skeptics such as yourself. In fact, I very rarely talk about my faith in my everyday life. The best thing we can do is leave the Church unlocked, try to live a good life, do good works and let that be our shining example. At the end of the day, you will be miserable in your life and we will make more sense to you then. Until then, enjoy the fruit of the swine, heathen.
 

Cookie182

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Whatevs Cookie
I've long since accepted the futility in trying to
convert
skeptics such as yourself. In fact, I very rarely talk about my faith in my everyday life. The best thing we can do is leave the Church unlocked, try to live a good life, do good works and let that be our shining example. At the end of the day, you will be miserable in your life and we will make more sense to you then. Until then, enjoy the fruit of the swine, heathen.
Usual wishwash.
 

SurferNerd

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Yes God exists but he doesn't want to be worshiped. He hates people who worship him and will definitely burn those worshipers in hell.
 

mcflystargirl

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You just avoided the question, a skip in logic.

The Bible was written by men, yes?

Then how do you claim to personally know "God's" thoughts on the household?
yes it was written by men, the thing is as iron said it was divinely inspired, i know many people are going to disagree with this, but if you are willing to look into this there is alot of evidence to back up the bibles claims.
 

KFunk

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yes it was written by men, the thing is as iron said it was divinely inspired, i know many people are going to disagree with this, but if you are willing to look into this there is alot of evidence to back up the bibles claims.
Do note the two different problems here - the first being one of interpretation, or exegesis, in which you must ascribe a given meaning (or set of meanings) to the bible, and the second being one of verifying the claims that are made once your interpretation has been fixed.

In particular note that evidence for a given event will not necessarily 'fix' the meaning of a biblical passage, especially once you take into account moral or metaphorical overtones which may be of equal or greater importance.

Against the simplicity of exegesis I pose the term 'schism'.
 

Kwayera

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yes it was written by men, the thing is as iron said it was divinely inspired, i know many people are going to disagree with this, but if you are willing to look into this there is alot of evidence to back up the bibles claims.
Lol. Really?
 

Cookie182

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yes it was written by men, the thing is as iron said it was divinely inspired, i know many people are going to disagree with this, but if you are willing to look into this there is alot of evidence to back up the bibles claims.
Such as?

Please respond in respect to the thread "rules" already neatly provided by Moonlight at the very beginning. Take special care to read the section on the Bible's validity in argument.

What explicit sources outside of the Bible validate the claim that the thoughts of men as written in the Bible are the thoughts of an all-knowing, supernatural entity (a hypothetical source of infinite energy) which engineered so skillfully this very moment?
 

gibbo153

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let us not also forget:

Ephesians 5:25: Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her​

Though women are to submit to men (in marriage), the man is to be servant hearted towards the woman and to put his needs above his own, just as Christ does the church.

Women are also to only submit to a man worth submitting to, its effectively a two-way street
 

BradCube

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I am curious as to Bradcube's exact theological position?

Also, I enjoyed your logic. Obviously, the default state then becomes agnosticism in respect to the knowledge of a recently born child. From that, I would ask what your position is then in regards to other gods (I'm assuming here you believe in the Judeo-Christian god)?

Let's take the god's of the Hindu pantheon for example, would you positively exert their non-existence (atheist) or do you retain an agnostic position here?
My answer is two fold:

In a strict sense of knowledge I would assert that I am agnostic about these Gods for which I have not considered or encountered - I lack a belief about them in its truest sense. I cannot positively assert the non-existence of a particular God for which I know nothing about - I would have nothing to positively assert about.

On a more general level however, I can make the positive assertion that "only the Christian God exists", in which case I have made a necessary, though accidental, positive assertion about the existence of other deities - namely, that they do not exist (accidental here is not used as a synonym for mistake, but rather as a secondary implication). So how can I hold this assertion, whilst being agnostic about these other deities? Simply on the basis of the evidence I take as good reason for believing in a monotheistic God - and more specifically, the christian God. Monotheism wipes out the possibility of retaining belief in multiple Gods and so I am forced to choose one. Because of this, if the God I believe exists, all other Gods must not, and hence, I positively assert their non-existence in this more general sense.

Also, note that the above may be subject to change if found to be inconsistent when placed under scrutiny. I say this in an effort not to appear too ad hoc if my position were to change. I don't think I have had to answer (or even think about) this type of question specifically before :p

I recognise that most 'Western' people, probably retain an agnostic position from birth simply due to:

1) Ignorance of any knowledge of their theology (could blame cultural/educational factors here)
2) Lack of care/interest
From birth I would think that all babies are agnostic due primarily to an inability to positively assert anything on a conscious level. Once into later periods of life, I would think that most are agnostic due to the reasons you stated. In my experience in real life (that is, outside the internet) I find that most people seem to be agnostic due intellectual laziness, lack of care, interest etc. Why, I will never understand, but most people I encounter do not seem to care about topics such as these.

Although arrogantly, I would say I am an atheist with respect to all deities, simply through the lack of evidence I find in researching the Judeo-Christian traditions. I admit that in respect to your logic, this is an arrogant position, as can one use the lack of evidence for one faith to prove the lack of evidence for all?
Certainly labeling all beliefs in God as unfounded is dangerous when your basing you argument on your disproof of one particular version of God. That is of course, unless your disproof serves to nullify all conceptions of God. Based on what you have said, I am inclined to think that they don't. I am (naturally) interested in what sort of "lack of evidence" you are talking about in regards to the Judeo-Christian God. Do you mean evidence from the theists side is lacking, or do you mean to say you have lack of evidence that would serve as a positive evidence for Gods non-existence? If only the former (that is, unconvincing theistic evidence), I would think that your leap to atheism for the Judeo-Christian God is unjustified. Unless you have some form of positive argument for Gods non-existence, what founds your atheistic belief? To me, you shouldn't be anymore than a skeptical agnostic.

On the other hand, if it was the latter and you do have a positive argument for the non-existence of the Judeo-Christian conception of God (argument from suffering, incoherent doctrines etc) then I'm all ears :)

I don’t believe in Amun-Re or Zeus (and positively assert their non-existence) but is this an ignorant position given that I have not done any research into lack of evidence with respect to these specific deities?

I also doubt I am highly alone in doing this.
Ha ha, you're certainly correct in saying that you're not alone in doing this! I would guess that from the understanding of these Gods you do have, there are reasons you find their existence unlikely. Possibly you don't agree with the idea of an imperfect God, interaction with humans or what have you. The reasons are not too important here (as long as they somewhat justify your jump to atheism)

However, I should also note that what you have mentioned here is slightly different from the "default" state of belief we were looking at earlier. In these cases, you have some knowledge of these Gods and are then able to positively assert their non-existence. In our case before, we had no knowledge of these Gods at all (no names, no character profiles etc) and as such it became impossible for our default state of belief to be "God x does not exist" and instead must have been "I lack a belief about God x". Hence in this case our default state is agnosticism instead of atheism. In your case however, as long as your reasons are sound for the unlikelihood of Zeus, then I would think your atheism is justified.
 
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A delayed response but I see the discussion is still going:
Rather, as an atheist you don't simply "lack a belief in god" you believe that "God does not exist". This is a positive claim to knowledge about the way the world is. If you are a hard line atheist, then you are just as owing in your share of the burden of proof as far as I can tell.

[...]

I can understand "lack of belief" as a default position, but surely the claim that "God does not exist" entails that one must first know what God is, and must have some reasons for why He does not not exist?
To have a lack of belief in a positive assertion (the existence of a god) is the same as disbelieving that positive assertion. Twisting disbelief as a "positive claim to knowledge" is wrong, because denial of a positive assertion does not require evidence. It is not a positive assertion in itself.

It just sounds like a facade for the old theistic cry of "if you can't disprove god that means there's an equal chance of him existing or not!"
 

SylviaB

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If someone doesn't know about Christianity/Jesus, do they go to hell?

If the answer is yes, then that is totally, undeniably unfair.

If the answer is no, then why tell people about Jesus?
 

*TRUE*

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If someone doesn't know about Christianity/Jesus, do they go to hell?

If the answer is yes, then that is totally, undeniably unfair.

If the answer is no, then why tell people about Jesus?
Mmhmm
'Life isn't fair , anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something.' You better believe it.
:burn:
 

Iron

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Who are you to say what's fair?

If they dont ever come to know Him, but remain in friendship with God, or are even just decent people who love others selflessly, then, we think, they wont go to hell but will undergo some painful state of purification until they are worthy. Here they will constantly be made aware of Christ - all they can do is see him and strive, in agony, to be near him.
The state of hell, however, is without light.

But Christ Himself commanded us to spread the good news. As soon as you get a whiff of knowledge of Him and willfully choose not to follow Him, youre cooked, boyow
 

mcflystargirl

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If someone doesn't know about Christianity/Jesus, do they go to hell?

If the answer is yes, then that is totally, undeniably unfair.

If the answer is no, then why tell people about Jesus?
what is unfair is that you rebel against God, and sin.
 

Holly_H

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Who are you to say what's fair?

If they dont ever come to know Him, but remain in friendship with God, or are even just decent people who love others selflessly, then, we think, they wont go to hell but will undergo some painful state of purification until they are worthy. Here they will constantly be made aware of Christ - all they can do is see him and strive, in agony, to be near him.
The state of hell, however, is without light.

But Christ Himself commanded us to spread the good news. As soon as you get a whiff of knowledge of Him and willfully choose not to follow Him, you're cooked, boyow
Ahhh straight from the mouthes of the conservative authoritarian right wing. You are right to have Margaret Thatcher as your avatar.

What in the above statement exactly represents what i imagine 'Christ would want from his followers? Is it the hear-say threats of non-compliance? Or merely the insistence that those who do not submit to the subordination of his rule will perish in hell?.
Was it not God who gave us all free will? What's to be said of a God who gives free will with implied conditions? Do as i say and heaven will be your reward, do as you wish and purgatory awaits thee.

It has never been religion, nor God that i have an issue with, it is purely his 'followers'. From all corners of the globe we have those who preach tolerance and forgiveness concurrently judging and persecuting those who do not bask in 'said' religion. By religion i mean all who live under the beliefs of a deity.
It is not a cliché' that most wars originate from religious dispute.

For alot of people it is not about weather we believe god exists or not, its primarily about weather or not we would align with such non-progressive, totalitarian, ignorant and often plain bigoted associations.

The most important information i derived from my Catholic school education was this; No matter what you do, no matter how you sin, repent on your death bed and all will be given.

Me thinks i will simply live my life subjectively and objectively, try and do the best i can and, oh yeah "repent on my death bed", just in case. :headbang:
 
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KFunk

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A delayed response but I see the discussion is still going:

To have a lack of belief in a positive assertion (the existence of a god) is the same as disbelieving that positive assertion. Twisting disbelief as a "positive claim to knowledge" is wrong, because denial of a positive assertion does not require evidence. It is not a positive assertion in itself.
I agree with the distinction that BradCube is trying to push. It is possible to deny the proposition 'God exists', i.e. to disbelieve it, without then believing or otherwise accepting its negation 'God does not exist'.

To use a couple examples - I do not believe that 'the number of hairs on my hair is even' nor that 'there is a giant squid in the Mariana Trench'. I can refuse to believe these propositions without thereby affirming their negations (for I similarly have little reason to believe that there is no squid in the Mariana Trench).

BradCube is not claiming that mere disbelief is a positive claim to knowledge (he denies this). Rather, the belief "god does not exist" is a positive knowlegde claim. BradCube does this to distinguish atheism (I believe that god does not exist) from agnosticism (I do not believe the proposition 'god exists'), and in doing so aims to show that the evidential requirements for the former are stronger than those for the latter (as one would expect)
 

SAVAK

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This thread is sooo stupid.
I actually speak to God every night before I go to bed.
like wtf, that automatically proves that God exists.
Some of you guys are retards.
 

Iron

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Ahhh straight from the mouthes of the conservative authoritarian right wing. You are right to have Margaret Thatcher as your avatar.

What in the above statement exactly represents what i imagine 'Christ would want from his followers? Is it the hear-say threats of non-compliance? Or merely the insistence that those who do not submit to the subordination of his rule will perish in hell?.
Was it not God who gave us all free will? What's to be said of a God who gives free will with implied conditions? Do as i say and heaven will be your reward, do as you wish and purgatory awaits thee.

It has never been religion, nor God that i have an issue with, it is purely his 'followers'. From all corners of the globe we have those who preach tolerance and forgiveness concurrently judging and persecuting those who do not bask in 'said' religion. By religion i mean all who live under the beliefs of a deity.
It is not a cliché' that most wars originate from religious dispute.

For alot of people it is not about weather we believe god exists or not, its primarily about weather or not we would align with such non-progressive, totalitarian, ignorant and often plain bigoted associations.

The most important information i derived from my Catholic school education was this; No matter what you do, no matter how you sin, repent on your death bed and all will be given.

Me thinks i will simply live my life subjectively and objectively, try and do the best i can and, oh yeah "repent on my death bed", just in case. :headbang:
:(:(:(
I'm afraid it doesnt work like that!:(
Your conscience is impure
 
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I agree with the distinction that BradCube is trying to push. It is possible to deny the proposition 'God exists', i.e. to disbelieve it, without then believing or otherwise accepting its negation 'God does not exist'.

To use a couple examples - I do not believe that 'the number of hairs on my hair is even' nor that 'there is a giant squid in the Mariana Trench'. I can refuse to believe these propositions without thereby affirming their negations (for I similarly have little reason to believe that there is no squid in the Mariana Trench).

BradCube is not claiming that mere disbelief is a positive claim to knowledge (he denies this). Rather, the belief "god does not exist" is a positive knowlegde claim. BradCube does this to distinguish atheism (I believe that god does not exist) from agnosticism (I do not believe the proposition 'god exists'), and in doing so aims to show that the evidential requirements for the former are stronger than those for the latter (as one would expect)
When it comes to the existence of god, don't we have a special case? The proposition "a god exists" is unfalsifiable, unlike "the number of hairs on my leg is even" or similar. Due to this, the one putting forward the positive existential claim has the burden of proof, and the one who is denying the existential claim only requires there to be a lack of evidence to the contrary.
 

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