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Happy September 11th! (3 Viewers)

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mervvyn

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thorrnydevil said:
Oh, and the fact that the mass murders have ended.
yeah, no doubt, but for the general population, i suspect life was quieter under saddam - minorities were targeted for sure, and thats not good, but it was a secular regime so less religious lynching, terrorist/antiamerican bombings, american bombings. also, most of the mass murders that the coalition refer to took place around the iraq-iran war time (1980s) not in more recent years - but by and large they're not recent atrocities, and that's what gets me - if their reason was to depose a dictator, why not sooner? more lives could have been saved, the american brand of freedom brought to them sooner...
otherwise, most deaths and torture were targeted against political enemies and ethnic groups - by no means good, but crimes of which plenty of other still existing regimes are also guilty of, yet i doubt they will be "brought to justice" in a similar fashion.
 
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thorrnydevil

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mervvyn said:
yeah, no doubt, but for the general population, i suspect life was quieter under saddam - minorities were targeted for sure, and thats not good, but it was a secular regime so less religious lynching, terrorist/antiamerican bombings, american bombings. also, most of the mass murders that the coalition refer to took place around the iraq-iran war time (1980s) not in more recent years - but by and large they're not recent atrocities, and that's what gets me - if their reason was to depose a dictator, why not sooner? more lives could have been saved, the american brand of freedom brought to them sooner...
otherwise, most deaths and torture were targeted against political enemies and ethnic groups - by no means good, but crimes of which plenty of other still existing regimes are also guilty of, yet i doubt they will be "brought to justice" in a similar fashion.
Iraq was made up of minorities. The only dominant group was Saddams Ba'ath Party (If thats how you spell it).
 

mervvyn

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thorrnydevil said:
Iraq was made up of minorities. The only dominant group was Saddams Ba'ath Party (If thats how you spell it).
not really - i think the breakdown was 60% shi'ite, 40% sunni plus the kurds in the north, who i grant were persecuted, as with other ethnic minorities like the marsh arabs, but on the whole, i don't think the whole country is that much of a collection of minorities as that.
and of course ba'ath membership was helpful as in any one party state, but i don't think you would be tortured for not being a part - for opposing it yes, but otherwise no. saddam was a sunni, so i guess that would have been helpful too, but he was more interested in maintaining power than mindlessly persecuting en masse. Of course, there was the stuff with iran, kuwait, the kurds, scuds, and the marsh arabs...
i am not disagreeing that saddam was a ruthless, selfish, power hungry dictator, my qualms are more with the way in which he was deposed - could have been planned better in my opinion, and so could the post war occupation have been.
 

euripidies

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veanz said:
the only thing good thing that came out of september 11 was that it helped me remember my cousins birthday :p

happy 18th stevie :)
Yer now I remember my dads birthday.
 

thorrnydevil

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How could it of been handled better? Saddam was to big on peaceful negotiations...eg. Kuwait. The only way to get rid of him was to declare war...its simple, and it was a shame innocent citizens and military personel have been killed, but at the end of the day, thats war.
 

mervvyn

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thorrnydevil said:
How could it of been handled better? Saddam was to big on peaceful negotiations...eg. Kuwait. The only way to get rid of him was to declare war...its simple, and it was a shame innocent citizens and military personel have been killed, but at the end of the day, thats war.
yeah i know, that was the first gulf war, i'm not contesting its legitimacy, more concerned with the second, more recent and messier one.
 

mervvyn

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firstly, a bit of honesty on the part of the coalition would have been appreciated i think. messrs bush, blair and howard managed to subtly change their tune away from WMDs and terroristm as these justifications became more and more dubious - i'm not ruling them out btw, just questioning if they constituted sufficient and reliable evidence to wage war on another sovereign country. as you say, war is not pretty, so in this day and age i feel a country should have a fairly strong reason to start one, particularly setting the risky precedent of pre-emptive striking

ok, a bit of UN co-operation would have been appreciated. given the obstinacy of france, germany, russia and china, this was always going to be tough - but even in post-war iraq, the UN could be more of an influence politically than it is, rather than just on a (limited) humanitarian level. the unwillingness of the us to share power is understandable, but puts a significant strain on the limited goodwill of the non-coalition internation community and the iraqi people. A stronger UN presence might give the occupation somewhat more legitmacy, and facilitate a handover. That's speculation, but my feeling is that the stronger the connection the new government has with the us, the less popular support it will be able to garner.

To be honest with you, I don't know enough of the detail about Iraq, its people, its politics or its history to accurately say how the war could have been better done - no offence, but i doubt you or anyone else on the boards do either, because we simply don't have access to all the information you'd need.
However, my personal opinion is that even in the case that one of the multiple justifications supplied for the war at various times was a valid and reasonable one - i can sympathise with wanting to remove a thorn like saddam - i believe that it could have been done in such a way to less antagonise the international community and the iraqi people. To many people, the whole thing smacks of shiftiness and it has tarnished the US's image internationally in terms of cooperating with other people, and added more propaganda fuel to the terrorist cause. The invasion, were it justified better and more transparently, could feasibly have had more international support and thus the post-war period could be less traumatic. Better involvement of iraqis in the decision making process, even if it went against us interests, might have averted some of the insurgency.

Basically, i agree that some of the fallout, damage and casualties of the invasion and occupation were unavoidable, but i also think that some of it was avoidable through better planning and understanding of the situation. For example, some might consider it naive to assume or claim that a "beacon of democracy" can be quickly established in a country, a region!, where anti-us sentiment has been running high for some time, and to underestimate the scale and intensity of the resistance - shouldn't the world's best intelligence agencies be able to pick up these things, and have their respective governments not override them for poltical reasons?
 

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you'd think the supposed intelligence agencies in the US would see that invading iraq is like the complete oppposite of what they should do if they want to win a war on terrorism. Iraq is the second holiest place in islam, and now its overrun by infidels. osama constantly preaches that the west is trying to fight a war on islam, and now they invade its second holiest place.. way to discourage islamic extremism.
 

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HellVeN said:
It's been 2 years. Can't those faggots get over it?
Haha the women who read the stupid lists had the most annoying voice ever!
Your the faggot
 

OZGIRL86

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eviltama said:
HAPPY SEPTEMBER 11TH!!!

*cough* that sounds nasty doesnt it?...

9/11 hrm... glad i'm not damn well in america thats for sure. ( 1. i'd get the shit kicked out of me for saying 'happy 9/11' and 2. yeh... america is just ick in the first place...)
Yeh it is nasty... what happened on September 11 was a tragic event and its not a day to celebrate...Its a sad day... Imagine what those poor innocent people went through... and look how many innocent people lost their lives...

I wonder if you would still be saying "HAPPY SEPTEMBER 11TH" If you lost someone on that day due to f***** up terrorists.. geez
 

mervvyn

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Nick said:
you'd think the supposed intelligence agencies in the US would see that invading iraq is like the complete oppposite of what they should do if they want to win a war on terrorism. Iraq is the second holiest place in islam, and now its overrun by infidels. osama constantly preaches that the west is trying to fight a war on islam, and now they invade its second holiest place.. way to discourage islamic extremism.
yeah, i think that idea has come out in some of the enquiries and in general public discussion, that A) the potential evidence supplied by intelligence was overstated, and B) negative consquences were underreported by the coalition, or perhaps even by intelligence to please the coalition govts

Ozgirl86 said:
I wonder if you would still be saying "HAPPY SEPTEMBER 11TH" If you lost someone on that day due to f***** up terrorists.. geez.
there are two sides to every story - the deaths on either side of this one are in no way justifiable. terrorists are not necessarily born evil mass murderers - by and large something will have happened to make them the way they are. beating the crap out of the other team and disregarding their humanity doesn't go down too well - look at the responses of the americans and the terrorists to it. not fun.
 

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Nick said:
Iraq is the second holiest place in islam....
I wouldn't classify Iraq is the second holiest place in Islam..............because it isn't..............

Thorrnydevil said:
I agree with Generator. Yusuf Islam would never do a thing like bombing and stuff. The US are so critical!!! He's totally against the whole terrorist bombing activity (in which the bomber's claim that they're fighting for Islam).
But its pretty ironic that they let his daughter in and kept him detained :cool:
 
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I was going to create a new thread in a minute or two, which is why the above post vanished...

It's just stupid to have a state so concerned over its security yet not be capable of moving beyond a simple 'watch list' (I'm making this 'simple' assumption given the fact that it's Cat Stevens).
 

thorrnydevil

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Kulazzi said:
I wouldn't classify Iraq is the second holiest place in Islam..............because it isn't..............
I also thought it was.
 

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Yeh it is nasty... what happened on September 11 was a tragic event and its not a day to celebrate...Its a sad day... Imagine what those poor innocent people went through... and look how many innocent people lost their lives...
What, it was like a thousand or two people. Not the biggest tragedy in the world.
 

thorrnydevil

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Mumma said:
What, it was like a thousand or two people. Not the biggest tragedy in the world.
3 thousand people died...but no biggy.
 

Kulazzi

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Thorrnydevil said:
I also thought it was.
Well, obviously Saudi Arabia is the most holiest cos thats where Islam originated, but there are so many other countries that also have a majority of Muslims. I mean, I don't think there's any history there (that is, in Saudi Arabia they actually have one of the Prophet's footprint) but in Iraq I dno't there is anything other than religious instruments, but then again, I haven't been there. Palestine, Lebanon, Iran <-----> these countries also have heaps of Muslim, so I wouldn't classify Iraq as the second holiest
(hope that all this makes sense :rolleyes: )
 

thorrnydevil

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Kulazzi said:
Well, obviously Saudi Arabia is the most holiest cos thats where Islam originated, but there are so many other countries that also have a majority of Muslims. I mean, I don't think there's any history there (that is, in Saudi Arabia they actually have one of the Prophet's footprint) but in Iraq I dno't there is anything other than religious instruments, but then again, I haven't been there. Palestine, Lebanon, Iran <-----> these countries also have heaps of Muslim, so I wouldn't classify Iraq as the second holiest
(hope that all this makes sense :rolleyes: )
Actually if you look it up, Timor is the Holiest Land.
 
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