Homosexuality in Australia (6 Viewers)

[SashatheMan]

 

[withoutaface]

You have to understand that homosexuality has with it many disadvantages. You should check out the many statistics that have been posted by a forum member, which I won't describe now.

Also, the assumptions made by Sashatheman that Islam forces others in the belief of God and Islam is totally incorrect. Am I forcing you to conform to my belief? I am merely explaining my viewpoints on the subject and am open to your views as well.

I would like it if any athiest in this formun could explain to me why the non-existence of God is good for mankind? How does it makes logical sense to dismiss the concept of God entirely. In my view, if there is no God and thus no hereafter, our lives are pretty much being lived in vain as there is nowhere to go after we die. The meaning of life is diminished. If there is no God, our lives become meaningless and trivial.

By the way, I am a male, not a female.

What is "good for mankind" is completely superfluous to the existence of God. As I said, stop making appeals to emotion because they just make you look like a moron.

And besides, most people on this forum who argue against you are in fact agnostics, not atheists.

 

[Riqtay]

Moonlight Sonata, I really respect you referring to all of my quotes and having your argument on the matter, without a slanderous remark of any kind.

However, even though you are a very intellectual person, I believe that your counter arguments are no more correct than mine. This is a discussion and the determination of who is correct lies with the person who is arguing. I do believe me being a fairly religious person, I do revert back to dogma for my arguments and try my hardest to incorporate logic with my belief in God, even if I don't have physical evidence of the existence of God (rather I have the reason WHY God should exist which I have explained earlier).

Also, referring back to homosexuality, I do believe that it is an utterly disgraceful act (which I have provided a reason for earlier). However, you have your own views on the issue and to a fair extent I respect them as you try your hardest to defend your argument.

At this point I believe that this debate has gone on for a while and appears to be going around in circles, so I would like to round up this debate by saying that I agree to disagree with you (you probably feel the same way).

Thankyou for fully arguing against my views in a formal manner.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Moonlight Sonata, I really respect you referring to all of my quotes and having your argument on the matter, without a slanderous remark of any kind.

I would never think of it, and appreciate your politeness.

However, even though you are a very intellectual person, I believe that your counter arguments are no more correct than mine. This is a discussion and the determination of who is correct lies with the person who is arguing.

I have to disagree. Logic is not subjective. In my arguments, assuming I am applying it correctly, I am using deductive reasoning and pointing out fallacies. These are not subjective things but flaws that exist regardless of who makes them. I mean, again, I note that I have been trained in that type of thing so it does not surprise me that it may escape a lot of people. But do not suppose that we are equally right simply because we disagree.

I do believe me being a fairly religious person, I do revert back to dogma for my arguments and try my hardest to incorporate logic with my belief in God, even if I don't have physical evidence of the existence of God (rather I have the reason WHY God should exist which I have explained earlier).

Yes, though I did respond to that point. But that discussion should continue in the Does God exist thread.

Even if God exists, I find it very hard to see why it would be against homosexuals, considering it was one of God's creations.

Also, referring back to homosexuality, I do believe that it is an utterly disgraceful act (which I have provided a reason for earlier).

That is a very vague statement. What do you mean by disgraceful? As I said earlier, the only reason you say that is because it makes you feel disgusted. I repeat, it makes you feel disgusted. It has nothing to do with logic or reason.

However, you have your own views on the issue and to a fair extent I respect them as you try your hardest to defend your argument.

At this point I believe that this debate has gone on for a while and appears to be going around in circles, so I would like to round up this debate by saying that I agree to disagree with you (you probably feel the same way).

I understand, though I would point out that I have addressed every one of your points.

Thank you for fully arguing against my views in a formal manner.

No problem.

 

[poloktim]

Funny, I am a theist. My strong religious beliefs have also made me believe strongly in social justice. Denying homosexuals the right to marry seems to me like a gross social injustice. Last time I checked homosexual people were people too, which means they're afforded the same rights as heterosexual people.

As for homosexuality, or the nature of homosexuality itself. Call me naive, but I refuse to believe that it can be a conscious choice. It seems foolish for somebody to choose to become a member of one of the world's longest discriminated groups. Therefore, I think that it's a case of having orientation thrust upon you, much like race and gender, and is uncontrollable. Therefore discrimination, much like discrimination against race and gender is rather socially injust, and therefore biggoted attitudes against homosexual people would be against God's wishes.

I might just be a moronic theist here, though.

 

[xeuyrawp]

As for homosexuality, or the nature of homosexuality itself. Call me naive, but I refuse to believe that it can be a conscious choice.

I'm telling you now that it isn't a conscious choice.

 

[poloktim]

I'm telling you now that it isn't a conscious choice.

Which strengthens the view that it is socially injust to treat homosexual people any different to heterosexual people.

Since most religious rules at the time of writing of the sacred texts followed what was simply the views of the people at the time, and they have been changed as time goes by in the form of papal edicts and so on (otherwise all Christians wouldn't be eating red meat/pork and mass would still be in Latin), I fail to see what ground people can stand on if they base their opinions against homosexuality on faith. Many Catholic Bishops have spoken out against alienation of homosexual people in the community (obviously not Pell).

 

[ogmzergrush]

Which strengthens the view that it is socially injust to treat homosexual people any different to heterosexual people.

Since most religious rules at the time of writing of the sacred texts followed what was simply the views of the people at the time, and they have been changed as time goes by in the form of papal edicts and so on (otherwise all Christians wouldn't be eating red meat/pork and mass would still be in Latin), I fail to see what ground people can stand on if they base their opinions against homosexuality on faith. Many Catholic Bishops have spoken out against alienation of homosexual people in the community (obviously not Pell).

Many catholic bishops have also been discovered to be kiddy tamperers, that (I hope!) doesn't meant that all catholics should kick it the same way

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Of course the desire to poo down peoples mouths probably isn't a conscious choice either, but even if both people are willing participants I imagine most people would still be against it.

 

[philly17]

I dont hate the homosexual people i feel sorry for them. Pell is an excellent leader dont you dare knock him! I just believe that what homosexuals do is disgusting! now thats conscious fisting poles up there you no whats and all types of disgusting things that are done are very much acts that they control therefore are unnatural and disgusting.

 

[xeuyrawp]

I dont hate the homosexual people i feel sorry for them.

Please don't feel sorry for us. We should be feeling sorry for someone that's had such a terrible upbringing as you have.

I just believe that what homosexuals do is disgusting!

We know that, phily. You're a nasty ultraconservative, of course you think anything that's unCatholic, unLiberal, and unRight is disgusting; it's what you were brought up to think.

now thats conscious fisting poles up there you no whats and all types of disgusting things that are done are very much acts that

"Fisting poles up there you know whats' ???!!! Aren't you mature enough to use the words 'penis', 'anus', 'anal sex', or even 'dick', 'butt', 'buttsex' or something? Go back to the third grade -- 'heeheeeh... Pencil...'

they control therefore are unnatural and disgusting.

Whilst 'they' control their actions (to have sex, to kiss, to hug), we do not control our feelings. To expect gay people to still remain gay, whilst not doing anything gay is so insane that there's really no point addressing the issue.

 

[SashatheMan]

I dont hate the homosexual people i feel sorry for them. Pell is an excellent leader dont you dare knock him! I just believe that what homosexuals do is disgusting! now thats conscious fisting poles up there you no whats and all types of disgusting things that are done are very much acts that they control therefore are unnatural and disgusting.

if you have a really ugly girlfriend and yuo fuck her. 1000 people around you are all saying thats disgusting and you should/can control yuorself and not be with her. does that make it unnatural to fuck ugly girls, because someone thinks its disgusting?

 

[poloktim]

Pell is an excellent leader dont you dare knock him!

Pell abuses Catholic (and well all) homosexuals by calling them scum and attempting to turn the Church against them. That's not a very Christian attitude, therefore I think it's perfectly valid to ignore most of what he says. Simply because he's a hypocrite.

Real Catholics love each other like the Lord loved all of us. Real Catholics don't abuse people.

 

[SashatheMan]

i hear the next pope is gonna be gay.

 

[xeuyrawp]

Pell abuses Catholic (and well all) homosexuals by calling them scum and attempting to turn the Church against them. That's not a very Christian attitude, therefore I think it's perfectly valid to ignore most of what he says. Simply because he's a hypocrite.

Real Catholics love each other like the Lord loved all of us. Real Catholics don't abuse people.

It's very true. The biggest teaching of Christ was tolerance for everyone -- protitutes, the diseased, the poor, the rich, the Pagans, etc. Gay people, I believe, have no choice about their situation, so we should be tolerated as Christ taught.

 

[philly17]

tolerance does not equal acceptance. Rob my father was in the labor party so half of what you think is wrong. (like usual)The church offer programes for Catholic people that think they are gay to help them such as encourage (its a group).
Pell teaches tolerance and the churches stance how does he abuse it? when has he called gay ppl scum?? I know him and i have never heard him say anything bad against them he believes we must pray for them.

And also poloktim you are a hypocrite for not listening and following the main teachings of the church, so dont get mad at me for listening to our leaders, leaders appointed by God.

 

[gerhard]

leaders appointed by God.

if there were ever an argument for separation between church and state, this is it.

So since god appoint the leaders we cannot question them? What about the Christian leaders who sexually abused children? Did god also appoint them? Why did he do it if he knew they would sexually abuse children? God knows everything doesnt he? Does god also teach that you should not question these men who sexually abuse children? If he doesnt teach that, then why cant you criticise any other church leader?

 

[philly17]

God knows everything yet allows free will evil comes from free will those men were tempted by free will and evil its sad that that happens yet God allows humans free will and they choose whether to commit sin or not.

 

[imsooverskool]

I have not read this thread, nor do i care to. All i have to say on the matter, is that people need to stop judging everyone by lables, rather judge someone on the merits of their character.

The Church has no right to cast judgements on people when its own policies and actions are unChristian to the core, the church is the worlds most hypocritical organ (after the Howard govt, lol). People have no choice over what their sexuality is, just as a heterosexual person says they just 'KNOW' that they are attracted to the opposite sex, i believe that a homosexual just 'KNOWS' that they are sexually attracted to those of the same sex.

Everyone needs to get the fuck over themselves and remember that just because someone is gay, it does not make them vile or worthless or any less of a person than someone who happens to enjoy having sex with the opposite sex

p.s I'm not sure if this argument has been raised by the ultra conservative christians of the forum, but yeh i will comment anyway. The idea that homosexuality is wrong because sex was only meant for procreation is bullshit. If it was only meant for that purpose then why the hell is it so enjoyable? Sex has moved beyond only an act of reproduction and just becuase gays arent getting their pleasure the conventional way, this does not make it unnatural. The need for love and sexual gratification is the most natural human need in the world, if someone who is gay chooses to satiate this need in a different way...

who the fuck has the right to critiscise this?

End Rant.

 

[gerhard]

God knows everything yet allows free will evil comes from free will those men were tempted by free will and evil its sad that that happens yet God allows humans free will and they choose whether to commit sin or not.

surely this means that we are allowed to criticise church leaders then? you suggested that we cant criticise church leaders as they are 'appointed by god'.



i dont understand how god can know everything and i can still have free will. if i have free will then i can choose whether to go outside now, or go have a shower. if god knows everything then he must already know which im going to do. if god already knows what im going to do then i dont have a choice, i dont have free will. on the contrary, if god doesnt know what im going to do then god doesnt know everything. which one is it?