religion and sex before marriage - REDONE (1 Viewer)

[Wilmo]

now before u start flaming cos i already stated im not christian and i should butt out...

Opinions count, irrespective of who says them, as long as theyre not stupid retorts made up on the spot, which yours obviously isnt

any religion that does not satisfy the changes due to time from the outset is flawed per se. i dont understand why religion should change with the changes in society. if religion and god are true, which to me they are, then god would have accounted for these changes from before, being omni-present, omni-potent and omniscient, right? thus all things within the religion should be based for as long as the religion sticks around. any modifications made to this creed are man-made and artificial - which is EXACTLY how it should NOT be. any man-made changes are limited in view, and requires constant changes to keep "up-to-date" per se. man in his very nature (note his is an arbitrary term), limited and dependant on many things, and if u believe in god - one who is above these limitations, then you should automatically realise that any thing that u add is limited as u urself are limited. thus, if god set out for a religion to stick for the entirety of humankind from its point of arrival, is it not plausible that god had infact intended the way described in the scriptures to be THE way to live ur life?

You made an excellent point here... a few excellent points actually.

What i believe is not a religion. Religion as you said is man made, and because we are flawed humans, then anything we do is flawed. We are also greedy, and as such want to manipulate something which is incomprehensible and fit it into a tiny box all in the hope that we may understand a little more.

An analogy would be a person who speaks very elloquent english and a child. The child does not understand what the person is saying, so they dumb it down until they understand what is being said. But in doing so some of the meaning is lost. So it is with religion. God speaks to us, and instead of elevating our minds to understand that, we dumb it down. We still get a basic message, but the original meaning is lost. That new message will only be relevent for a short time as the social context changes.

As a christian, I believe that Jesus was indeed the Son of God, and what he spoke was God's truth. Therefore, instead of taking what he said and making it relevent to what i understand, I should learn to understand exactly what he was trying to say, which may surprise you because it is entirely relevent today.

"IF" God exists, then he would most certainly know how to reveal himself to people throughout the life span of the universe. That is what he has done. God is immutable and cannot change, therefore the love he has for us is also unchanging. Whether i lived one hundred thousand years in the future or in the past, i would still be a sinful human being, and I couldnt change that. But God's grace to me ensures that no matter what my place in history, I know he loves me.

certainly any addition to the scriptures or any modification due to changes in the society should not be made. if u DO decide the religion u choose, or if ur just an agnostic believing that there is something out there...then u dont sway with the changes caused by society

Exactly... Changes should not be made. For someone who believes in an infalible God, you cannot say that his word is false.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Id hate to be one of the people responsible for bringing that on myself... shesh

If I am to be true to what I believe, I will not sway with society. I will live in and contribute to the people around me, but I am called to be set apart (for thats what holy means). Im not anti society, but i will not compromise my being different in order to fit in. My God is unchanging, what i believe is relevent in all contexts, and there is no need for me to sway because of that.

however, u must acknowledge also that faith or degree of faith within or around religions is subjective...ppl choose to believe some parts while rejecting others. is this how religion should be? is it just a matter of choosing the right social or moral values which best suit u? or are u supposed to follow an entire religion in its entirety? if u are looking for religion as a sense of hope and a drive to keep u going, so be it...however, i believe (yes this is a personal statement, and obvioously mean no direspect or offense) that u are not looking hard enuf. a religion by its definition is the guidelines to live ur life, and is complete within itself. it is not something u restrict to sundays (assuming most on this thread are christians), or any other holy day or event. religion is all-encompassing and should tell u how to act. it is a list of things that god has told u to uphold.

"Sleeping is my religion, but Jesus is my Savior"

When someone explained that to me, they explained religion as something you do EVERY day. Since i sleep every day, that can be classified as my religion

I have been given a guide for my life. I have not been given a guide for the hour a week that im at church for. My goal is to live everyday how God has asked me to live. I would hardly show how much I appreciate him saving me from Hell if i wasn't commited to doing that. Granted I dont always do it, but I always try! How can I not. If he saw right past the loser I am, if he saw past all the selfish things i do and managed to see something beautiful in me, how can I not try my best to repay im for that?!

note just some food for thought...no offense intended. i, myself, admit i do not kno enuf to argue against christianity so i wont...if it seemed that i was, it was to be a general religion question, and i merely used christianity as an example.
enjoy.

Twas some good food... it got me thinking

Don't worry there is no offence taken, its good to have your own opinion, and I know not everyone will think the way I do. Personal attacks are the only offensive things really, and you have none of them

the church refused to acknowledge the heliocentric solar system, and instead remained steadfast in its assumption of the geocentric model...however, later it changed...sry for the crude example but it IS the only one that came to mind.

One of the things you also have to remember about this is that Gallileo was also someone high up in the church (religious scholars where the scientists of the day). It was not God who denounced Gallileos theory, yet it was people claiming to act on Gods behalf. But nothing in the bible contradicts a heliocentric solar system. It was people who thought they knew everything about God because they were special.

But even when they condemned him as a heretic, he still kept his faith. He knew that his sentence was from men and not from God.




Sorry i was slow in replying... ill reply to other posts later... so tired

 

[osk]

God bless you Wilmo!

I find it warming that there is finally someone here prepared to stand firm in their faith.

btw....I wanna do nursing too.....I heard that U syd is unsure of whether they're gonna offer it......consider UTS....they have a hands on course with prac from week 2

 

[~Dreamer]

calm down children.

back to the question, i think that the culture an individual was raised in will have a big impact on their choices and beliefs. religion is one aspect of that culture, and i for one know that my family are heavily influenced by it and therefore i was also influenced. i still have my own views and beliefs, but i dont think that people should be critical of wether we find out people choose to/or not have sex before marriage. who gives a shit. its all a phychological game to me. and yes i am a practicing orthodox.

 

[Sophie777]

again u start to argue something that is subjective...it is my belief...feel free to argue, but u'll get nowhere. also with trying to imagine heaven...have u ever seen it? have u gone there to say that its boring...ur drawing on useless generalisations, which is sad in itself. u CANNOT argue subjective things...and stuff u obviously cannot comprehend...note i am not calling u a simpleton, i cannot comprehend heaven, as we cannot experience something like it. refer to the door knocking example i gave earlier.
again with the second paragraph, that is YOUR view...and is noted and respected, but u are not offering any more evidence for ur belief than i have. can u prove that life's purpose is to help people? to love people? the argument is flawed. religion gives u a sense of purpose - true
however, it is what gives u the values and YOUR purpose for life (again subjective). no it is not any more real than ur purpose, only because at the moment i am unable to prove to u the existence of god. once u get that everything falls into place. can u justify YOUR purpose as the right one? u cant and wont be able to, because it IS subjective. thats like saying my favourite colour is red...which it probably isnt, but just as an example. i cant justify my choice, and any attempt to do so would be ridiculed. "i like it because it rminds me of love" - for example would be shot down by communism... ur argument in that point is not valid...there is NO WAY u can argue a subjective without something that totally without any doubt shows a better way. if u base this "better way" from ur own opinions u r only propagating a limited view on the topic. u need something greater...even a bunch of ppl wouldnt cut it. i dont see why u are intent on debating my beliefs...note no offense was taken, but ur argument of trying to assert ur beliefs over mine is not a valid argument, because ur argument is just as subjective as mine.

I get the feeling sub, that when you submit your points that you somehow feel you have adequately refuted what I have said. Well... You haven't. In fact, I never argued with anything subjective. I didn't say religion doesn't give you purpose, I said its sad that you can't find a purpose in life, outside of religion.

I don't think that my purpose is the right one. It seems to me that you are missing the point of the argument. I am not arguing subjective points, I am arguing against your assumption of religion as fact. And in any case, I am not asserting my beliefs over yours. I am one to admit that I don't know whether I am right, it is you which believes in the ultimate truth of your argument. If you did not, then you would be unfaithful to God. However, to be able to successfully have a 'discussion' with you, you need to be able to question the credibility of your beliefs also as by arguing each point of mine as to "you can't be sure" and "this is just subjective" is only a means of avoiding the real issues of the argument. You cannot find any supportive evidence for the truth of your argument, and you are constantly arguing that I have no right to question your beliefs. If you never either state your beliefs or actually argue against my belief with logic then how can be part of a conversation?

And, it is very hard to read when you aren't writing in proper sentences.

 

[gemita]

Before I say anything, this is what I believe: I'm not even vaguely religious and I found it offensive that some people on this thread felt the need to impose their personal beliefs on me by saying that God loves everyone, regardless of whether they acknowledge him or not, and that one day I'll discover this. That's like me saying "God doesn't exist, but you go on thinking that he does until one day when you shall be enlightened. Peace out." I'm not disrespecting all Christians here, because I realise most of you aren't like that and have the decency to respect other people's decisions.

Ok. I think a lot of this thread has been represented by extremes:
On one hand, some people are saying - Sex is an act which is purely born out of lust, and has no value unless it is with the person you are definitely going to spend your life with. By having sex you are basing your relationship on sexuality rather than lust.

On the other hand, people are saying - Sex is "integral" to a relationship. Marriage is just a piece of paper. Not having sex until after marriage puts you at great risk.

Personally, I don't see sex as just an act of meaningless passion which I indulge in because I don't have the strength to resist my urges. I'm not just a dumb lust-crazed teenager who is too stupid to keep my pants on. For me at least, it's a very intimate act of love and it means something. Just because a couple have sex doesn't mean that their relationship is based on it. Also, I'm not in a relationship with the intent of dropping my boyfriend later. As far as I see, I love him and I do actually want to spend my life with him.

At the same time, I think Asqy's being extreme talking about marriage as just a legal tie. For me, although it's not a religious act, I don't think many people get married because of thier bank account - it's a meaningful and symbolic step. I also think it's silly to pretend that waiting for sex until after marriage causes the huge relationship issues asqy keeps talking about. They probably cause just as many problems as kids having sex before they're ready and regretting it later.

Basically what I'm saying is that sex or no sex, it's a personal decision and shouldn't be looked down on as meaningless or frivolous by people who are against it, or as a naive and blind choice for those who choose to wait.

 

[MzbLaZeIT]

yes i will have sex before, i AM religious


my religion is no sex before marriage
but im not following my religious aspect as a means to whether i want to have sex or not before marriage
its merely my own personal choice
not based on religious choice!!
and yes, sex before marriage i rate it lol ! (its the 21st centuryyyyyyyyyyy w0rd!)

taaaaaa!

 

[osk]

Realise that it is every Christian's responsibility to tell others about the love God has for us - that was Jesus' last command. Jesus did warn of hostility from some people upon hearing such things (This will be demonstrated by the many annoyed responses that will likely come!!)......I completely understand....hearing such things may make some people feel uneasy....but it gets them thinking......I'm defiantely prepared to risk the anger of a few if there's the slightest chance that someone might repond to the message of God's love

 

[Sophie777]

You have no right to share what I believe is 'bullshit' I stress I believe. Keep it to yourself. Did you watch how hostile everyone was to that guy on sbs who went around spreading atheism? Why don't you realise that we are all people, more important that some spirit in the sky as we actually exist and breathe. You can see us. Hence, if we find it irritating and disrespectful that you attempt to 'share' your religion then why don't you stop it. It is very unchristian of you to plainly do something when you know others are irritated, insulted and angered by it. I am not going to be swayed by your propaganda as I have a brain and I know that the fear of nothingness after I die and the wonderful offerings of a life with God will not override my logic. It doesn't make sense, all it does it fit in with a human inability to understand our existence. If we don't understand then we need more research, we don't just accept a God without any logical reason as to why. Don't follow emotions, follow your head.



You know what I don't understand?

How those that follow islam, or christianity or judaism all allow in mind, the coexistence of other religions (I know in reality there are wars because of this) and can't bring themselves to question how there possibly be so many. Don't you think perhaps it is a clue as to the human need to explain life many thousands of years ago? Of course you don't. If it was as simple as any religious person actually answering my question without saying "there are wonderful things in the world, who created them?" or "You have to have faith" then I think there would be less religious people in the world.

You can't have so many religions and know with such blind faith that yours is that which is correct. Perhaps the only answer here is we all need to follow the idea of God, whether that be a person or a spirit, someone who started this mess. The Bible cannot be the word of God, does he actually speak to you in the bible or is it all just hearsay? Do they take anecdotal evidence in court? No. How easy could it be for 12 men or even 1 man with 12 different names to write this religious narrative? If you are so sure that all the other versions of religious belief are wrong then it is quite obvious that it is possible that they could have just you know... made it up.

Religion endorses in the fact that life has a purpose, help people, love people, get a job, have a family, have a life. (not particularly outside religion. It just so happens that its under Christianity and explores other moralities, discourses, etc in society, while believing in God. The difference is that we believe that God gave this opportunity as a gift (so we can not take it for granted) and although many atheists don't take life for granted, I completely agree.

It's only upsetting when someone labels Christianity as "wrong" without thoroughly going through its discourses, values, morals etc.

The morality in the bible has many faults. To one studying the values inherent in its words it is not very interesting. It doesn't value women outside of marriage, nor does it recognise homosexuality. We as a society, have been moulded by the values and morals within the bible. So what? that doesn't mean that it is Gods word, all it means is that he who wrote it has had a great impact on the way we live. And, he sold many many copies. Good on him.


(edit: merged)

 

[Wilmo]

I see flaws in the bible too... its homophobia, its racism, depending on the way in which its read.

I do not see the bible as homophobic. The bible says that practicing homosexuality is a sin. Big deal. Lying is a sin, and we are all guilty of that. Its human minds that produce the idea of relative holiness... that one sin is worse than another. All sin is rebelling against God, so no matter what I do i need to be forgiven for it. I most certainly cannot look down on someone because they are gay. I can see them as sinful, yes, but i cant look down on that because i am just as sinful! Id hardly call that homophobic.

Where in the bible is racism? I dont know... honestly i dont. All i can think of about this topic is:

Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

I believe that if someone is a christian, then that is what they are. Theyre not a "black christian" or a "white christian" they are just plain christian. They are my brothers and sisters and therefore there is no racial discrimination.

But you say im not christian, so therefore i can discriminate against you... This is what Jesus had to say:

Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

If these are the two greatest commands, and they are the two that I am following, how can I be racist? Or discriminate against people for their sexuality, beliefs, or anything? Basically what it means to be living as christian is to LOVE EVERYBODY. How can I not try my hardest to do that?

To be honest, priests, bishops etc have sat there and enforced their own readings of the bible (since it IS a series of narratives) toward society, and some countries have claimed that when at war they are "fighting for God" - yet as we all know, readings such as this are biased and unreliable.

There are two types of holy wars: God sanctioned wars, and people wars.

The first type of war is mainly found in the Old Testament part of the bible. You'll often read that people prayed to God then he spoke through his prophets and said "I have given your enemy into your hands". But those types of wars are few and far between. Id imagine there have been some modern God sanctioned wars, but i dont know enough history to back that up.

The second type is wars started by people claiming to be acting on Gods behalf. A definite example of that is the crusades. The pope dude was heaps corrupt and he wanted Jerusalem for the christians (basically he wanted it so he could make people pay money to buy time off purgatory so that he'd get richer). People saw the pope as Gods representative because they didnt have the bible so they didnt know better. Because of that they were willing to do some stupid stuff in Gods name. I have no doubt some soldiers were fighting for God, but they didnt realise a man had sent them.

I also believe that because of the way in which one can interpret the Bible, it can also be RE-interpreted, which happens all the time. You'll find that most christians are not the way some think. You'll be surprised how many are open minded to other religions, as well as atheists, race, gender, and (rarely) sexuality. This is because the bible can be reinterpreted, seeing as though its a text. We may read it NOW in a feminist, multicultural etc, stance, interpreting in what we want to read, the way bishops and priests and other authority figures had when they enforced their readings toward the public and constructed "traditional" christianity, if there is such a thing.

How can you even try interpret the bible? The bible is God's Word, and therefore he has already interpreted it! Christianity starts becoming religious when people take what God says and reinterpret it how they believe it should be. If God speaks the truth, then anything we humans can reinterpret out of it is a flawed variation of truth.

People who lead churches ie ministers and bishops and stuff, if they are presenting you with what they think God is saying, then you are not getting the whole truth. You are getting a flawed representation of the truth. You have to be quite aware of the bible and be like "This is not what God is saying". People who teach others about Jesus have a responsibility to teach the truth.

Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

If i were to be a teacher, then what I teach must be correct. If it wasnt, my students would know something thats wrong, then if they became teachers, they would teach what is wrong. In that way, i would be judged more strictly because i would be responsible for telling heaps of people wrong truths. Because of that, any personal reading of the bible becomes a flawed religion.

Before I say anything, this is what I believe: I'm not even vaguely religious and I found it offensive that some people on this thread felt the need to impose their personal beliefs on me by saying that God loves everyone, regardless of whether they acknowledge him or not, and that one day I'll discover this. That's like me saying "God doesn't exist, but you go on thinking that he does until one day when you shall be enlightened. Peace out." I'm not disrespecting all Christians here, because I realise most of you aren't like that and have the decency to respect other people's decisions.

I dont know if you consider me one of those people imposing my personal beliefs... but yeah I am fully aware of how hostile people can get regarding having a belief forced upon them. I can only tell you what I think about this:

My aim is to live as a christian, to be different for Christ. If I manage to be different, then people are going to ask me why. I can then share what I believe with them. I agree with osk in that every christian should evangelise, but i dont think forcing what I believe on someone is the best way to do that.

I think you'd be a lot more receptives to anything I had to say if you yourself were the one to start the conversation. If you saw that I was different and you were curious as to why, then you'd be interested to know. It would be a lot more effective then me saying "This is how Jesus tells you to live your life" then you see me go off and live the opposite to it.

Thats just my thoughts on how I should tell people about Jesus. Imposing is never any good...

 

[Sophie777]

I think that the bible is homophobic. If it says something that is inherent at birth or an inherent emotion is a sin then it should be burnt. How dare the bible be read by people today when it calls someone sinful for loving a person of the same sex. I wish all those who believed the same thing knew how it felt to be in love with someone of the same sex. It isn't something you choose. It's rediculous for people to suggest this.

In addition to this, how can you possibly take something thousands of years old as truth. How is it relevant to us today? It isn't. It hence either is void or needs to be re-interpreted. God won't love you any more for saying what you said.

 

[~Dreamer]

Basically what I'm saying is that sex or no sex, it's a personal decision and shouldn't be looked down on as meaningless or frivolous by people who are against it, or as a naive and blind choice for those who choose to wait.

i couldnt have worded it better

 

[Wilmo]

I think that the bible is homophobic. If it says something that is inherent at birth or an inherent emotion is a sin then it should be burnt. How dare the bible be read by people today when it calls someone sinful for loving a person of the same sex. I wish all those who believed the same thing knew how it felt to be in love with someone of the same sex. It isn't something you choose. It's rediculous for people to suggest this.

All sin is inherent from birth... Our natural state is to rebel against God. Therefore sin itself isnt something we choose. If im married to someone, then i lust after someone else, do I choose to do that? No, its because surely i was sinful from birth. Therefore the bible doesnt discriminate against gay people.

but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

If i look at someone and think theyre beautiful, thats not sinful, but when I desire something that is contrary to God's plan, that gives birth to sin. In the same way feeling something for someone of the same sex is not sinful, but when you desire to do what is contrary to God's plan, then it becomes sinful. There are plenty of gay christians, but you cannot continue to be a practicing homosexual if you are desiring to please God.

It goes back to the grace safety net I mentioned in an earlier post. Yes I can continue sining and not get off the safety net, but how does that show that I love God? It doesnt! If i continue to not fight my sin, I am still saved, but I'm not living in a way the would show I am thankful to God for saving me.

In addition to this, how can you possibly take something thousands of years old as truth. How is it relevant to us today? It isn't. It hence either is void or needs to be re-interpreted.

Have you looked at the bible? I mean seriously looked at it? To me this sounds like a blanket statement because I've looked at the bible and it is seriously relevent today. The way to live your life presented by Jesus has not changed. Society has changed, yet true christianity still remains relevent.

The bible only becomes false when we change its original meaning because "Oh its too hard to live that way" or "Im sure we're an entirely different culture now... even though i have no idea what the culture was like back then". As sub said the other day, if God knew everything that would happen, wouldnt he create something which would survive the changes... he did, but some people dont believe that.

God won't love you any more for saying what you said.

...

*cough*

 

[Sophie777]

You aren't automatically right you know. You have no evidence as to God's existence or not christianity being the most relevant and true religion. All you have is faith and frankly it isn't enough. Not in an argument.

 

[soha]

isnt it prohibited in all or most religons
no sex before marriage
in christianity and islam and judiasm and the many sects of those religons then hinduism and budhism
practiaccly all religons say no..
but i guess it depends if you choose to follow
i dont believe in sex before marriage
i know it happens but not for me..because of my islamic faith...and it makes sense if in all major religons it doesnt allow it
then there must be something wrong with doing it?

 

[soha]

All sin is inherent from birth... Our natural state is to rebel against God. Therefore sin itself isnt something we choose. If im married to someone, then i lust after someone else, do I choose to do that? No, its because surely i was sinful from birth. ..(originally posted by wilmo)


that i will never understand..how can a baby be born of sin..
a baby so innocent and pure..
how can we be guilty before prooven innocent
doesnt make sense..
everyone is innocently bought into this world then what they do they can be judged on
you cannot judge someone before they even do anything
a baby born of sins..sins he hasnt even commited..
as much as people try to explain it to me i can never believe it or accept it..
its doenst make sense to me..

 

[Sophie777]

Meh. Sex isn't such a big deal. When you have it, honestly it won't be such a big deal. Do it with someone you love and thats when it should happen. It was invented for procreation however we evolved. wE HAVE contraception now, sex has become something different.

You know, God didn't create humans anyway. We are evolved beings. We share 99% of our DNA with chimps. We are basically gorillas with a section of our brain which allows us to speak. So if God didn't create humans, then how can you say God wants this from us and all this?

 

[soha]

sex might not be a big deal to you..
especially because you are someone who doesnt follow a religon like christianity or islam that teaches you not to have sex before marriage and why?

maybe if you did have that sort of faith sex before marriage would be a big deal or you would understand why to some people it is a big deal

 

[sub]

You know, God didn't create humans anyway. We are evolved beings. We share 99% of our DNA with chimps. We are basically gorillas with a section of our brain which allows us to speak. So if God didn't create humans, then how can you say God wants this from us and all this?

hmmm, so much for arguing based on proof...again, it is a theory...but ill argue that one later...i have eco tomoro and i have to cram 400pgs in one night, so ill be brief and answer some..not all, sry.

And, it is very hard to read when you aren't writing in proper sentences.

hahaha, my english teacher said the same thing...guess ill fail english too but i reckon im one of those weird "other" people that think in random structured maps than from writing stuff down, but ill try to be more comprehensive. generally what i type is how i think...

I get the feeling sub, that when you submit your points that you somehow feel you have adequately refuted what I have said. Well... You haven't. In fact, I never argued with anything subjective. I didn't say religion doesn't give you purpose, I said its sad that you can't find a purpose in life, outside of religion.

true...i do feel taht way, but i think i either misread what u were trying to say, or it wasn't conveyed clearly enough...ill give u the benefit of the doubt...i could not be bothered trying to justify my last argument, because apparently it was the rong line of attack.

However, to be able to successfully have a 'discussion' with you, you need to be able to question the credibility of your beliefs also as by arguing each point of mine as to "you can't be sure" and "this is just subjective" is only a means of avoiding the real issues of the argument. You cannot find any supportive evidence for the truth of your argument, and you are constantly arguing that I have no right to question your beliefs.

point taken, and will be noted for future posts...however, u DO assert certain things as true without PROOF per se...sure we may have 99% similarity between humans and chimps, but that does NOT prove that we were evolved... i dont think its fair for u to assert that as truth when it hasnt been proven. it is your opinion and it should be kept as such.

What i believe is not a religion. Religion as you said is man made, and because we are flawed humans, then anything we do is flawed. We are also greedy, and as such want to manipulate something which is incomprehensible and fit it into a tiny box all in the hope that we may understand a little more.

ok...maybe i miss read this, or are u REALLY trying to say that what u follow is NOT a religion? that seems retarded to me...but then i again, i have, apparently, misread another post, so please clear this up for me... true, i agree with ur argument of the flawed nature of humans and all, but ur assuming that religion is "created" by humans, and in doing so, u have just said that what u believe in is "created"...that is illogical considering the rest of ur post... no, i DONT believe the manipulation thing either...how does being greedy make us want to fit something in to a little box? that seems like ur using religion to fill in the blanks, or trying to push a square block through a round hole. THAT is NOT how u treat or view religion, especially cos the rest of ur post shows that u actually are devout, or atleast religious.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

ok, now with this quote from the bible...u use it to argue the abhorence of change to the bible...yet hasnt things been added to it? it was not the original that was sent down to Jesus approximately 2000 years ago. it was paraphrased by other people from what was remembered. now, these people MAY be very honest and all...i cannot argue with that, because i dont know much about it, but...u must realise that what was written once by "God", as he sent down the religion, it is NOT the same as before...thus doesn't ur quote go against ur own religion? i do not want to argue this point if u dont want to as i dont intend to attack christianity...this is merely to clear things up for me.

Im not anti society, but i will not compromise my being different in order to fit in. My God is unchanging, what i believe is relevent in all contexts, and there is no need for me to sway because of that.

thats nice to hear...i wont compromise on my religion either, but the way u word it makes it seem as though u are asked to be different? now that shouldnt be the case. i am different per se, because of what i believe in, not because my religion tells me to be different. im not sure if that makes sense, but think about it. with the context part of that statement...WRONG...u cannot say it is relevant in all contexts. context is the way of preceiving something. if u deliberately try to make something mean something that it doesn't by taking minor passages from any text, u can create any meaning. so saying ur religion caters for all concepts is wrong - because all ur confirming is that ur religion may be interpreted in any way. when looking at the context of a text, u must look for textual integrity, or take a statement in context of what else was said about that incident or topic at that time as well. if u are able to isolate a few words that say "jump off a building", yet when taken in the context of the rest of the sentence, it actually says "jump off a building if there is a fire"... u cannot say that it still makes sense. context alters the perception of truth, or any meaning that may be derived, and u must be able to look at things from the intended context, or something totally obscure may result... (note example i gave was crude, but i have eco to study...sry)

well reading ur stuff i found a better example of the role of context in altering meaning...

One of the things you also have to remember about this is that Gallileo was also someone high up in the church (religious scholars where the scientists of the day). It was not God who denounced Gallileos theory, yet it was people claiming to act on Gods behalf. But nothing in the bible contradicts a heliocentric solar system. It was people who thought they knew everything about God because they were special.

But even when they condemned him as a heretic, he still kept his faith. He knew that his sentence was from men and not from God.

here it is evident that context changes how the bible can be viewed...u say two things in ur argument which, to me atleast, go against what u are saying.

i think that the culture an individual was raised in will have a big impact on their choices and beliefs. religion is one aspect of that culture, and i for one know that my family are heavily influenced by it and therefore i was also influenced. i still have my own views and beliefs, but i dont think that people should be critical of wether we find out people choose to/or not have sex before marriage. who gives a shit. its all a phychological game to me. and yes i am a practicing orthodox.

ok...true culture has an impact...of that there is no doubt. sure you will be influenced, but it is YOUR DUTY as a person to go out and search for the truth yourself. you cannot lie back and say i believe in this because my parents do.... that to me, is a cop-out, and shoes that u do not believe as well as u should. ur opinion may be different, but i think it is my responsibilty to find the religion that best answers all the questions. and i believe i have found that one.

I am one to admit that I don't know whether I am right, it is you which believes in the ultimate truth of your argument...
If you never either state your beliefs or actually argue against my belief with logic then how can be part of a conversation?

point taken, and i dont actually believe without reason...but it is hard to explain the concept of god to someone else. its like trying to explain how things look like to someone who;s been blind all their life. (please note that i was not trying to use one of those biblical (stereotypically) examples of people without religion being blind, no matter how much i may believe that...it was the first example that came to me)
argue with logic...well ill try. there is a logic to the exisence of god, and ill try to give it to you later, because at the moment i do have study to do, and i actually dont have a complete response at this point in time. but yeah, nice points raised, from all of u guys, and i guess ill see you some time tomoro, or next wednesday when i finish. till then goodluck and, for me, back to work...

 

[Dougie]

Sub has too much time on his hands...

 

[sub]

touche dougie...but some stuff couldnt be left unsed...

*runs off to study eco*