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The terrorism theory President Bush refuses to hear (2 Viewers)

HotShot

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banco55 said:
For anyone who doesn't think they should have dropped the bomb I suggest you have a look at the projected casualty/death figures (on both sides) for an invasion of the main japanese islands.
The whole was an invasion was necessary, generals such McArthur held the view that Japan was already losing the war and there was talk secretly within Japan to surrender.

Ur only at casualites. what about the cost of the destruction to japan it was huge so huge that america had to help.
 

JayB

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i love how even after the all the war crimes comitted, and the atrocities that have been shown, people still try and condemn the actions. the fact of the matter is, evil acts are committed during war. but the japanese and the germans began it. the american acts finshed it. the german and japanese ones were personal, and much much much more horrific than anything the americans did.

there weren't american's raping and pillaging whole villages of japanese women, mutilating their bodies, just for the hell of it. there weren't american's incarcerating millions of people to ritually slaughter them, just for the hell of it.
 

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JayB said:
i love how even after the all the war crimes comitted, and the atrocities that have been shown, people still try and condemn the actions. the fact of the matter is, evil acts are committed during war.
Sorry? You don't like it when people/institutions take the time to assess the situation and hold people/institutions to account for whatever atrocities were committed? What exactly are you willing to excuse in the pursuit of 'victory', JayB?

JayB said:
but the japanese and the germans began it. the american acts finshed it. the german and japanese ones were personal, and much much much more horrific than anything the americans did.
The actions of one do not excuse the actions of another, JayB.
 

JayB

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in the pursuit of survival generator, not just victory. there is much i would approve, and endure for my survival, and my families. plus, i make no qualms with assessment, nor holding people to justice, indeed, i would be rather hypocritic were i to disagree with that.

and you are perfectly right, when acted in revenge that might be seen as true. but when enacted for the purpose of security, safety, justice, and survival, they are perfectly justified. no excuse is needed.
 

HotShot

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JayB said:
in the pursuit of survival generator, not just victory. there is much i would approve, and endure for my survival, and my families. plus, i make no qualms with assessment, nor holding people to justice, indeed, i would be rather hypocritic were i to disagree with that.

and you are perfectly right, when acted in revenge that might be seen as true. but when enacted for the purpose of security, safety, justice, and survival, they are perfectly justified. no excuse is needed.
but there was no direct to america - pearl harbor was in hawaii and tat was the beginning of the war. since then the japanese never managed to get to american soil. on top of that they were losing the war, especially when Russia declared the war. - this was the turning point.

they were not acted on purposes of security etc, that why they are called atrocities and in human war crimes. Its a crime of WAR.

humans have been living for ages... there has been no direct to our survival ( i dont there will ever be - man made that is).

We are not arguing that america shouldnt have gone to war - they have every right to wage on whoever , but they must do so within rules. Just like the soldiers they must follow ROE.. rules are there to create oppurtinity particularly in wars to create peace and if they are broken - then the whole purpose of war is gone.
 

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okay, i can see were you're coming from.

peral harbour was not the beginning of the war, just america's entry into it. japan had already been part of the war since 1940 when they occupied vietnam, which was a french territory at the time, and joined germany and italy's axis. pearl harbour was a year later. there were diplomatic discussion preceeding the attack, and they were not solved, so japan struck first. there was no formal declaration fo war, so 3000 people were killed in cold blood.

On July 27, 1945, the Allied powers requested Japan in the Potsdam Declaration to surrender unconditionally, or destruction would continue. However, the military did not consider surrendering under such terms, partially even after US military forces dropped two atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

there was a complete direct threat to america, thats what a war is about. direct threat. in addition there was direct threat to america's allies, namely australia.

number 2, none of the axis abided by the rules of engagement, nor by any human's rights or pow agreements (i'm assuming that they were drafted before world war 2, if not, then there was nothing for america to transgress anyway). so why should america? those rules only work if both sides are willing to abide by them. if not, the civilian counts on your side rise much much higher, and in the end, you have to protect your own before someone else's.
 

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Regarding the original topic, many would argue that the issue isn't Bush refusing to hear it, it's rather more about Bush refusing to acknowledge it, on purpose, so that he can continue his militaristic 'War on Terror'.
 

JayB

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who me a non militaristic war on anything. and if he disagrees with it, or more importantly, his aides and advisors disagree with it, then that isnt a refusal to acknowledge, its a considered decision about how to make the most effective effort possible.
 

JayB

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that's meant to be "show me..."

sorry, typing issues.
 

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Right, that makes more sense.

As for the post itself, you seem to have misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about the semantics of war. I was talking more about simple politics psychology. The whole POINT is Bush REFUSES to acknowledge this theory publically, SO he could instead pursue a particular foreign policy which suits him. Politicians acknowledge things publically in a manner which obviously suits their particular agendas, that is nothing new. For example, how would acknowledging the validity of this theory assist in his War on Terror? Absolutely nothing. It is counter-productive. If you're a vegetarian arguing for the vegan side, you don't acknowledge the benefits of meat, should they exist, since obviously that doesn't help your side with anything. So if he was to purposely IGNORE this theory (regardless of how valid it actually is).. i.e REFUSING to ACKNOWLEDGE, and instead focused on the argument that Islamic terrorists attack us due to their supposed fundamental hatred of our way of life, that would be of benefit to his War on Terror. Understand now?
 

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Who's killed more and threatened to kill more Australians? Muslims or Americans? Yeah lets side with the muslims and rip on the democratically and popularily elected leader of the US, morons.
 

JayB

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"I hate to tell you this, but the civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't committing war crimes."

it could be argued, but i wont convince you. but think about it this way. your kids, or theirs? i know my choice. it really was the only way to effectively consolidate america's safety, and to win the war hands down. and it nearly didnt work either. only once the soviets joined the front did the japanese surrender. they started the war by attacking civilians, and you can e damn sure that theirs supported the death of anyone who wasn't japanese. so why don't they deserve a war? and the most effective methods possible?

the most unfair thing, and one that i really will concede, is that their kids are affected, sins of that father kinda thing.
 

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JayB said:
"I hate to tell you this, but the civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't committing war crimes."

it could be argued, but i wont convince you.
It can't be argued, JayB, so there's no point in even suggesting that it's remotely possible.
 

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bshoc said:
Who's killed more and threatened to kill more Australians? Muslims or Americans? Yeah lets side with the muslims and rip on the democratically and popularily elected leader of the US, morons.
bad analogy, take it from their perspective . whose killed more and threatened to kill more arabs....
 

HotShot

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JayB said:
i know my choice. it really was the only way to effectively consolidate america's safety, and to win the war hands down. and it nearly didnt work either. only once the soviets joined the front did the japanese surrender. they started the war by attacking civilians, and you can e damn sure that theirs supported the death of anyone who wasn't japanese. so why don't they deserve a war? and the most effective methods possible?
thats not way the whole purpose of a war is it shouldnt be either.. Why are wars fought mainly to create some form of stability (the argument used by politicians, generals etc) but in t he end it never works.. war dont achieve anything.

Britain colonised a whole bunch of places - and ruined them.. the now at look them they are tiny island..

killing militants in war - is justifiable to some extent - but civilians play no part in wars, they are not taught to fight or laucnch a missile or how to kill so killing them is waste -- and tats particuarly why the atomic bombs did little to deter japan's position...
 

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HotShot said:
bad analogy, take it from their perspective . whose killed more and threatened to kill more arabs....
Who cares? I'm not a muslim, I'm not an arab, we're so culturally and geographically apart I couldn't care less about them (seems selfish, but the reality is they don't give squat about us, so its even), I also know that when we do start conflict in their lands we achieve our objectives without targeting their non combatants on purpose, and if the muslims dont like it, maybe they should start purging their religious communities and abandon islam, becuase this isn't going to be over before that happens.

Edit: I'm pretty sure the one who's threatened and killed more muslims are, yep, muslims, Al-Q in Iraq loves to blow up 30 or 40 arabs at a time, I mean they dont even bother to go after Americans half the time. Also do not coflate arab with muslim, just becuase some arabs are muslim doesen't mean all those arabs that aren't muslim have anything to do with it.
 
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JayB said:
"I hate to tell you this, but the civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't committing war crimes."

they started the war by attacking civilians, and you can e damn sure that theirs supported the death of anyone who wasn't japanese. so why don't they deserve a war? and the most effective methods possible?
quote]

Much like you, who seem to be supporting the death of those who aren't australian. (or western)
Funnily enough, civillian populations do tend to support their army, because their fathers/brothers/sons are in that army. That's no reason to kill them. Besides, i think its a bit of a leap to think that they supported the death of anyone who wasn't Japanese. You may sit at home going "Kill the muslims, kill the afghans and iraqi's" but I don't think most of Australia does the same.

The Japs surrendered when the soviets entered the war, as you said, which effectively means that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were pointless. Just a war crime, like the Japanese war crimes. Fortunatly America is the only nation stupid enough to use nuclear weapons on that scale.

As for their popularily elected president...pfft. 30% of the population votes, and this most recent election was highly controversial for being frigging rigged!
 

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