Does God exist? (18 Viewers)

[mirakon]

Einstein

"I'm not an atheist. I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's pantheism, but admire even more his contribution to modern thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and body as one, and not two separate things.[6]

In a 1950 letter to M. Berkowitz, Einstein stated that "My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."[15] Author Anthony Alioto has referred to Einstein as an "agnostic theist"[16] sometimes called a form of deism or panentheism."

 

[Bored_of_HSC]

Anyways guys don't call anyone an idiot here. Don't turn this into a flame war.

Be respectful.

 

[mirakon]

The problem with this thread is that most people only consider God as a religious notion, rather than a metaphysical one which isn't exactly the same thing.

For example, the Spinozan god is completely detached from religious principles.

 

[mirakon]

hahahahahaahahaha, no.
he didn't say that!
he said this :
A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)

He was talking about the notion of the soul rather than God. Incorrect context.

 

[RANK 1]

by your logic, you obviously have read nothing.

your main point was that 'Nothing can come from nothing. Creation must be created by the creator' which means god would also have needed a creator

and i addressed your stuff about intelligent design>evolution etc in another post

 

[RealiseNothing]

He was talking about the notion of the soul rather than God. Incorrect context.

Yer this.

 

[mirakon]

your main point was that 'Nothing can come from nothing. Creation must be created by the creator' which means god would also have needed a creator

and i addressed your stuff about intelligent design>evolution etc in another post

Well logically if you consider the definition of God as "omnipotent" then one would assume he has precedence over notions such as time and space, meaning that the concept of something coming "before" God has no real relevance.

 

[lolcakes52]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein's_religious_views

Also get on topic. This isn't about whether einstein was religious or not.

 

[planino]

Yes but how does worshipping him make us happier? Wouldn't he jsut want everyone to life "good lives"? (which for non-believers is an abstract concept)

God wishes everybody lived good lives on this planet without unintentionally sinning. Worshipping may not make us happier immediately or even consistently (been there, done that). Worshipping is often an act of thanking the Lord for all good things, acknowledging our faith for Him (though the true degree of faith one has is often tested practically by the Lord. If the person is just showing off his so called faith without much actual faith, God, through a 'practical test of faith' shows him this so he (hopefully) realises his mistake and goes back to building real faith) and/or simply because people Love him. Worshipping makes God happy, and those who HAPPILY worship God know this, and so are happy because they know God's happy.

Another thing God may wish to do is make this world seem like an unattractive place and encourage people to worship Him so they can eventually reach Heaven and bask in permanent happiness. He doesn't have to do this. We're the ones who have sinned, yet out of love and empathy, He's attempting to get us back onto the right track and attain permanent happiness

 

[mirakon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein's_religious_views

Also get on topic. This isn't about whether einstein was religious or not.

Lol getting a little sidetracked is not a bad thing, especially as mentioning Einstein provokes discussion on the idea that if there is a God, it is not necessarily a religious entity.

 

[lolcakes52]

The notion of omnipotence is flawed. Can an omnipotent being create a rock which is impossible to lift by an omnipotent being? Or create a task which an omnipotent being cannot solve?

 

[Absolutezero]

also the reason that evolution and the big bang theory is still a theory is because it requires direct, hard evidence for it to become a fact however given the fact that its still impossible to obtain that evidence for obvious reasons it remains a theory.

on the other hand however 'intelligent design' requires no evidence whatsoever and is extremely convenient as the answer is always 'god did it'. however this still doesnt prove that its true.

I agree with you, but I think your misusing the term theory, in the scientific sense.

Remember, gravity is still a theory, and yet we all just take it as fact. Evolution is exactly the same sort of deal.

 

[mirakon]

The notion of omnipotence is flawed. Can an omnipotent being create a rock which is impossible to lift by an omnipotent being? Or create a task which an omnipotent being cannot solve?

does an omnipotent being have power over logic and as such is it dictated by it?

 

[fatima96]

I never said you were going to burn in hell. That's up to God. Peace.

 

[Annihilist]

Do you think terrorists should get away with what they do? Do you think they can get away with what they do? Eventually, they wont (either in this life or the next - I believe in the cycle of birth and death). God will deal with them, in some way or the other - it's only fair as many millions of innocent lives had been lost. Terrorists need to be penalised for their wrong doings. I understand that that many terrorists are misguided, and so does God. He'll work out the perfect balance. You've gotta trust Him. God works for our benefit (believe it, or not) and whatever he does WITH US, we shouldn't question as we have to realise it's for our overall good. Why do we face the problems we do? So we can become more empathetic and aware of our actions so we don't INTENTIONALLY commit sinful activities in the future.

Many terrorists do what they do for their religion. Because they think God wants them to crush heresy and non-belief. I don't think terrorists should get away with it. But they do. Your belief is based on something you would LIKE to be true - you WANT there to be justice, and you cannot face an uncaring world which allows such people to get away with their actions. The fact is that the world we live in doesn't care about us and there is no natural objective justice system.

As a child, your mother or father may have, for example, stopped you from eating too much chocolate. At that time (let's say you were 2) what would have known about chocolate? You would have thought (from experience) that it's delicious (assuming you liked choc). When your parents stopped you from devouring the 5th cadbury bar, you would have been angered, as the delicious taste of chocolate is being taken away from you. Your parents however knew a lot more about chocolate than you (from experience etc.). They would have known that excessive amounts would have e.g. caused you painful toothaches.

Right...

More importantly however, they took it away from you not because they hate you, not because they're 'nacissistic pricks', but because they love you. Why would they want you to get a painful toothache that would make you cry? Seeing you in pain would have pained them as well. Therefore they took away the cadbury, knowing that you'd cry or sulk over it for a few minutes (or hours depending on how much you love chocolate) but they had saved you from a much more serious long term consequence, because they love you. The cliched saying 'short term gain, long term pain' applies here.

This parental love analogy can be extracted to the logic behind God's decision making. This is why we should trust him. With your two other questions, we must simply have faith in the fact that he's superior, that he's real

Now, with regard to the misfortune of others, we should help them, not blame God (or them). Whatever they may have done is none of our business.
What are your reasons for thinking about God the way you do? Please answer this question of mine

How do we trust that his decisions are right? If we're talking from the Bible, God demands worship, and obedience from his subjects. His sense of morality is skewed. How can you trust him fully, as though you are one hundred percent sure he is doing the right thing? I have to be cynical of anyone with authority because there's no way to tell how genuine their actions are.

What you are suggesting is blind faith and naivety. And stupid. You are stupid. Think for yourself. Don't let others think for you. Don't trust God's morality as the one true morality. There is no objective morality, there is no natural justice. Deal with it.

God is an asshole. The Christian God is narcissistic - he demands worship and obedience (as I said) and damns people to hell for disagreeing. People who are strong enough and smart enough to make decisions for themselves get sent to eternal hell for doing so, and defying God's righteousness.

 

[planino]

"Religion is stupid" - Albert Einstein.

There is your answer guys, from the man himself.

source please

 

[mirakon]

Thats the thing, i think its ridiculous to try and prove/disprove the existence of God via logic, as such a notion is in itself illogical. Its then up to people to decide whether logic is the be-all and end-all of everything.

I'm simply of the view that there is no real reason why logic has to be the limit of everything

 

[Absolutezero]

source please

Even if there was a source, it wouldn't matter, because it's an argument from authority, not an argument from evidence.

It may be correct, but it's not a valid argument.

 

[mirakon]

I also think that people concentrate too much on the "God" part of the question rather than the "Exist" part. Even up till now, philosophers have failed to actually provide a wholesome definition of what existence is.

 

[lolcakes52]

does an omnipotent being have power over logic and as such is it dictated by it?

Occam's Razor solves this problem rather nicely. If a solution is elaborate then it is less credible than a simpler solution