Islam (1 Viewer)

[HaBibi~]

Now for the juicy part, my dear HaBiBi ...

I would like to say that I am no muhaddith to be able to interpret the context of that hadith and its authenticity. You need to understand that hadith and Qur'an are a science.

You cannot simply provide a hadith or an ayah without proper context. That's very ignorant of you HaBiBi and seeing as though you've supposedly done your research, I would've thought better of you.
There are different classifications of Sahih (let alone hasan and da'eef); the narrators; the chain; the content all need to be analysed. One hadith may not suffice. There may be 2 or 3 others to support it or discredit it.
You do need to know that scholars have dedicated their entire lives (of about 40-50 years) memorising all the hadiths and the Qur'an. And then little miss habibi smarty pants comes along with her cut and paste jobs and decides to be a scholar too, how convenient.

It's just like me picking up a book on medicine and deciding that i know what needs to be done to treat someone who has Hepatitis B, for example. Is that legitimate? Or should i leave to the doctors who have studied 7 years or more?

Whether you read the translation or the arabic, it will not do justice. Have you studied the entire Qur'an to interpret it? Have you memorised the many thousands of hadiths which are used in conjuction to the Qur'an to support its verses? I'm afraid you haven't, but hey neither have I. There are those that are qualified though, and you might want to take knowledge off them - hence why i have recommended those 2 books, because all the interpreting is done for you
I'll give you an example of taking things out of context. This is regarding the prohibition of alcohol. Obviously during the early stages of Islam it was permissable to drink but there had to be a way to gradually reveal to them (the muslims) that it was going to be forbidden and not something that smacked them in the face out of thin air. This mainly occurs in four verses in the Qur'an which are not in the same chapters. Now if you were to read the first verse, you'd think "sweet, drinking is ok as it comes from dates and grapes". But there are the remainder of the verses which later prohibit its consumption.

habibet albi (the darling of my heart) snobby airlines,

well of course, you are right, i do not have much knowledge about the sacred texts of Islam. however i do know, snobby, that the Qur'an is the "infallible and literal word of Allah". i dunno about u, but literal kinda does imply taking the words deeply and, well - literally. The infallible word implies that his words are perfect and without falter. And therefore, also should be taken literally. but not just taken literally - religiously adhered to.

also, my understanding is, ms snobby airlines, that a few of the 99 names of Allah include the "merciful" "compassionate" and the "loving". Surley a God like this would not condone killing any one who does not believe in him – no matter the context.

yes, you are right about one Hadith needing the support of others. but isn't that a problem in itself - the fact that the Hadiths vary in their accuracy and their portrayal of Muhammad? the fact that certain Hadiths contradict themselves?

by the way, snobby, of course you don't follow Muhammad because of that example. i'm certain you see good qualities in The Prophet. but the fact that he, the seal of all the prophets, the one who recieved those revelations in that cave in Medina some 22/23 years ago, did such an injust action in the first place. the fact that your ultimate example committed such actions, is wrong in itself, not merely the context of the action. u cannot justify something like that. and even if you can, you shouldn't have to. because it shouldn't have been done in the first place. well that's according to your Qur'an anyways:

Al-A'raf (The Heights)

7:33 Say: "Verily, my Sustainer has forbidden only shameful deeds, be they open or secret, and [every kind of] sinning, and unjustified envy, and the ascribing of divinity to aught beside Him - since He has never bestowed any warrant therefor from on high and the attributing unto God of aught of which you have no knowledge."

here is a specific verse about killing.

4:92 AND IT IS not conceivable that a believer should slay another believer, unless it be by mistake. [114]

how about non believers?

 

[hiphophooray123]

islam is the worlds biggest terrorist organisation

 

[routemarker]

yes, you are right about one Hadith needing the support of others. but isn't that a problem in itself - the fact that the Hadiths vary in their accuracy and their portrayal of Muhammad? the fact that certain Hadiths contradict themselves?

Hadiths are not of the word of god but recorded sayings of the prophet.

by the way, snobby, of course you don't follow Muhammad because of that example. i'm certain you see good qualities in The Prophet. but the fact that he, the seal of all the prophets, the one who recieved those revelations in that cave in Medina some 22/23 years ago, did such an injust action in the first place. the fact that your ultimate example committed such actions, is wrong in itself, not merely the context of the action. u cannot justify something like that. and even if you can, you shouldn't have to. because it shouldn't have been done in the first place. well that's according to your Qur'an anyways:

Al-A'raf (The Heights)

7:33 Say: "Verily, my Sustainer has forbidden only shameful deeds, be they open or secret, and [every kind of] sinning, and unjustified envy, and the ascribing of divinity to aught beside Him - since He has never bestowed any warrant therefor from on high and the attributing unto God of aught of which you have no knowledge."

Here is probably a better translation
007.033
Say: the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge.
Source: University of Southern California http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/007.qmt.html

It means that basically you are forbidden to do bad things and you should not assert that god has any partners and is hence a singularity. You know the central dogma of monotheism. Simple enough?

here is a specific verse about killing.

4:92 AND IT IS not conceivable that a believer should slay another believer, unless it be by mistake. [114]

how about non believers?

Here is a sura about non belivers. Make of it as you will.

AL-KAFIROON (THE DISBELIEVERS, ATHEISTS)
Total Verses: 6
Revealed At: MAKKA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

109.001
Say: O unbelievers!

109.002
I do not serve that which you serve,

109.003
Nor do you serve Whom I serve:

109.004
Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,

109.005
Nor are you going to serve Whom I serve:

109.006
You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

Sounds like um lets agree to disagree. I can't see anything there which say you shall be killed and unless you follow my religion. I see "You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion. ". Total religious freedom, right there! But if people stop you from practicing your religious beliefs then you have the right to defend your rights, thats a given and thats where some grey area is to be had.

 

[snobby airlines]

habibet albi (the darling of my heart) snobby airlines,

well of course, you are right, i do not have much knowledge about the sacred texts of Islam. however i do know, snobby, that the Qur'an is the "infallible and literal word of Allah". i dunno about u, but literal kinda does imply taking the words deeply and, well - literally. The infallible word implies that his words are perfect and without falter. And therefore, also should be taken literally. but not just taken literally - religiously adhered to.

No, that's where you're wrong. It's not to be taken literally. If you were to translate the Qur'an - "the foreign language can not deliver the polysemy of the Qur’anic style; many words in the Qur'an have more than one meaning, besides, the foreign language can never convey all these meanings in one word. If the translator chooses one of these meanings according to his methodology in translation, then the translation will be insufficient to deliver the whole message of verse.

Some Arabic words are used figuratively; message of the Qur’an might not be conveyed in case of translating the verse literally.

Some specific meanings are expressed in general words; if a translator tries to convey these words without referring to the specific meaning, he will not bring the aim of using these words in the Qur’an.

Arabic has its own unique style which is considered as the key to understand the rulings of Shari`ah, the matter which could not be transferred through any other language.

Because of the reasons mentioned above, and many other reasons, which proved that the literal meaning could not convey the message of the Qur’an, the scholars do not allow applying this kind of translation to the whole Qur’an but it may permissible in regard to certain verses.

....Of the literal understanding there are several kinds. The first concerns a clear text, i.e. a text clear and without ambiguity.

Example:

'But if he cannot afford it, he should fast three days during the Hajj and seven days on his return, making ten days in all' (Al-Qur'an 2: 196).

Still other verses imply a meaning through the context, although the wording itself is not clear.

Example:

'And out of kindness reward to them the wing of humility' (Al-Qur'an 17: 24).

This applies to parents, and not to all human beings in general, as the context of this verse suggests"

yes, you are right about one Hadith needing the support of others. but isn't that a problem in itself - the fact that the Hadiths vary in their accuracy and their portrayal of Muhammad? the fact that certain Hadiths contradict themselves?

It's not necessarily the content of the hadiths that contradict themselves, rather the chain of narrators. There are many reasons why hadiths may not be sahih (authentic). For a hadith to be authentic it must fulfil 5 conditions. It's not as simple as you think. A hadith has been relayed over generations and there must be some sort of structure to keep it preserved.
Do you even know what a hadith is though? It's the sayings and actions of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Now the first to obviously narrate it are his companions then the pios predecessors and so on. Now if at least one narrator in that chain has not fulfilled all 5 of those conditions it drops that hadith to another classification. It's very complex.

the seal of all the prophets, the one who recieved those revelations in that cave in Medina some 22/23 years ago

he received his first revelation in Makkah in the cave of Hira. And for a period of 23years during his lifetime - not all in the cave.

Al-A'raf (The Heights)

I'm not sure about the meaning of this ayah, and you shouldn't jump to conclusions either. It could be in regards to a certain battle they were in? No one in this forum can explain to you what each verse in the Qur'an means, as we're not qualified. Well i'm not anyway. I am in the process though, as every person should be in order to make any sort of explanation of the verses.

Anyway, as routemaker quoted from the Qur'an: To you your religion, and to me, mine

Peace.

 

[snobby airlines]

4:92 AND IT IS not conceivable that a believer should slay another believer, unless it be by mistake. [114]

how about non believers?

Check this out:

"Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice. Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends (and ally) with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are wrong-doers." (Al-Mumtahanah 60:8-9)

This verse was revealed after the story of Asma’ and her mother. Imams Bukhari, Muslim and Ahmad reported that Asma’ the daughter of Abu Bakr (R.A.) said: “My mother came to me while she was still a polytheist, so I asked Allah’s Messenger (S.A.W.), “My mother, who is ill-disposed to Islam, has come to visit me. She wants something from me. Shall I maintain relations with her?” He (S.A.W.) replied, “Yes, maintain relations with your mother.”

After Imam At-Tabari mentioned various opinions for the explanations of this verse, his final conclusion was that: “The most correct opinion in understanding this verse is that Muslims should be just, fair, and have the best relationship with all Non-Muslims who ‘do not fight against us on account of our religion and do not drive us out of our homes.’ This includes people of all faiths and sects and the support of this correct opinion came from the story of Asma’ with her mother.”

Sayyid Qutb also attempts to explain this verse, saying that:

“Islam is a Deen of peace and a conviction of love. It is a system that has compassion to all people. It gathers all people (Muslim and Non-Muslim) under the banner of Allah like brethren in accord and love. There is no obstacle that prevents this from happening except an aggression from its enemies against it and its people. If those enemies show peace, Islam does not want animosity or to start it. Even when the enemies still show animosity, Islam always looks for ways to bring the relationship to normalcy through great conduct and justice.”

He continues: “Islam allows Muslims to seek accord and love with Non-Muslims who did not fight them for their religion and expel them from their lands.”

He continues: “Islam makes peace as the normal relationship between Muslims and Non-Muslims. This relationship is not distracted except with an aggression that must be dealt with, a breaching of truce, an obstacle in the face of delivering the message of Islam, shackling the freedom of religion. Other than that, the relationship is a relationship of peace, love, justice for all people.” {In the Shade of Al-Qur’an, 6:3544.}

snobby airlines' note: See how much explanation is needed for just 2 verses? And see how these 2 verses were revealed after the Prophet told Asma' to keep relations with her mother?
You can't simply paste a verse and take it for what it says literally.
There's so much to know. *sigh* at those who think theyre scholars.

 

[HotShot]

Check this out:

"Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice. Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends (and ally) with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are wrong-doers." (Al-Mumtahanah 60:8-9)

This verse was revealed after the story of Asma’ and her mother. Imams Bukhari, Muslim and Ahmad reported that Asma’ the daughter of Abu Bakr (R.A.) said: “My mother came to me while she was still a polytheist, so I asked Allah’s Messenger (S.A.W.), “My mother, who is ill-disposed to Islam, has come to visit me. She wants something from me. Shall I maintain relations with her?” He (S.A.W.) replied, “Yes, maintain relations with your mother.”

After Imam At-Tabari mentioned various opinions for the explanations of this verse, his final conclusion was that: “The most correct opinion in understanding this verse is that Muslims should be just, fair, and have the best relationship with all Non-Muslims who ‘do not fight against us on account of our religion and do not drive us out of our homes.’ This includes people of all faiths and sects and the support of this correct opinion came from the story of Asma’ with her mother.”

Sayyid Qutb also attempts to explain this verse, saying that:

“Islam is a Deen of peace and a conviction of love. It is a system that has compassion to all people. It gathers all people (Muslim and Non-Muslim) under the banner of Allah like brethren in accord and love. There is no obstacle that prevents this from happening except an aggression from its enemies against it and its people. If those enemies show peace, Islam does not want animosity or to start it. Even when the enemies still show animosity, Islam always looks for ways to bring the relationship to normalcy through great conduct and justice.”

He continues: “Islam allows Muslims to seek accord and love with Non-Muslims who did not fight them for their religion and expel them from their lands.”

He continues: “Islam makes peace as the normal relationship between Muslims and Non-Muslims. This relationship is not distracted except with an aggression that must be dealt with, a breaching of truce, an obstacle in the face of delivering the message of Islam, shackling the freedom of religion. Other than that, the relationship is a relationship of peace, love, justice for all people.” {In the Shade of Al-Qur’an, 6:3544.}

snobby airlines' note: See how much explanation is needed for just 2 verses? And see how these 2 verses were revealed after the Prophet told Asma' to keep relations with her mother?
You can't simply paste a verse and take it for what it says literally.
There's so much to know. *sigh* at those who think theyre scholars.

after all that one could just say that it was all made up - bunch of lies...

 

[ElendilPeredhil]

well, heres an indication of Muhammad and His life according to a Hadith:

"A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, ‘O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk.’ Allah's Apostle said, ‘I recommend that you should join the herd of camels.’ So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died."
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 261: Narrated by Anas bin Malik.)

and by the way, before anyone starts by saying "it might not be a credible Hadith", it is actually one of the six major Hadiths that Sunni varients uphold greatly, and is one of the two "sahihs".

Straight from the Qur'an, darling. Straight from the Qur'an.

You can take quotes from the Bible too to prove God is a bloodthirsty little bastard, have you done that? Have you tried asking a Christian (like a priest) how they worship a god who thinks that a father who gives his daughter to be raped by an angry mob is a good man? Ask them why Jesus is so petulant he kills a tree that is not in season?
Anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of the bible realises that there are many such examples in both books.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

You can take quotes from the Bible too to prove God is a bloodthirsty little bastard, have you done that? Have you tried asking a Christian (like a priest) how they worship a god who thinks that a father who gives his daughter to be raped by an angry mob is a good man? Ask them why Jesus is so petulant he kills a tree that is not in season?
Anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of the bible realises that there are many such examples in both books.

Damn, you're right.

Jesus' conquests

Mohammed's conquests

 

[ElendilPeredhil]

Bah! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Good call.

Okay, but I was mostly talking about God. The God of the old testament and the god from the new testament are the same, right? Well either that or OT God had PMS.

'Sides, I'm not claiming that Mohammed was perfect. He was just an ordinary man, Muslims don't make any claim that he is the son of god, divine, perfect, etc.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Bah! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Good call.

Okay, but I was mostly talking about God. The God of the old testament and the god from the new testament are the same, right? Well either that or OT God had PMS.

'Sides, I'm not claiming that Mohammed was perfect. He was just an ordinary man, Muslims don't make any claim that he is the son of god, divine, perfect, etc.

Muslims are compelled to live as the prophet did, I'd say he's viewed as a pretty damn good guy

 

[LynH1326]

Go and read "does my head look big in this?"
It is a novel written by an Australian Muslim woman who is a lawyer. It deals with the issue of an Australian Muslim girl in a Christain school who decides to wear a veil, and other issues that surround her life as a pretty normal Aussie girl who loves Sportsgirl clothes. It also deals with her friend who's parents are not as liberal as hers.
It is one of those eye opening books and by the end of it, you do feel that you can understand a little more about life in general.

I also recommed the Diary of Anne Frank. They do deal with similar issues afterall.

My understanding of the veil is that it is a symbol of devotion to one's faith, just like the Star of David and the crucifix.
Also, don't all religions preach modesty?
Personally I don't like girls and guys dressing like little tarts and muscle men, and i'm not overally religious nor am i Muslim. I prefer not to show my stomach and my boobs all the time. Maybe I might wear something like that occasionally, but not so that it shows everything, is tight or that something could fall out with every move I make!

 

[LynH1326]

Muslims are compelled to live as the prophet did, I'd say he's viewed as a pretty damn good guy

Same as the "Hi Five for Jesus" slogan (As seen at the Australian Catholic University: Signadou campus on open day). Also the "What Would Jesus Do?" phenominom.

In the end Christianity, Judaism and Islam stemmed from the same origins. Its just that over time, everything has evolved from new ideas and people such as the prophets/deciples/sons of Abraham.

 

[Serius]

why did those muslim leaders refuse to shake the hand of a woman? is this something muhammed has said to do?

 

[funkyj]

You can take quotes from the Bible too to prove God is a bloodthirsty little bastard, have you done that? Have you tried asking a Christian (like a priest) how they worship a god who thinks that a father who gives his daughter to be raped by an angry mob is a good man? Ask them why Jesus is so petulant he kills a tree that is not in season?
Anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of the bible realises that there are many such examples in both books.

I'm a catholic but not a strict believer. But as far as my knowledge or recollection of Jesus killing the fig tree goes, I believe the interpretation to that is that the fig-tree was chosen by Jesus because of its significance in Roman and Jewish culture at that time as something of esteem. It was regarded as the symbol of the nation of Isreal. The withering of the tree was a symbol of the fate that awaited Jerusalem because of the extend the high ranking people were corrupted in trying to kill Jesus, refusing to believe his authority and God's purpose. The tree was used as a symbol and not as an object as some religious groups would like to believe and interpret it in a different light. There are many things in this world that you can't just take at face value but have to look more deeply at the bigger picture. I'm sure the same goes for those other islamic or biblical examples as well.

 

[ElendilPeredhil]

Muslims are compelled to live as the prophet did, I'd say he's viewed as a pretty damn good guy

yeah...but it's more a 'live as god said to live'...do as I say not as I do...which might be imperfect, but yeah, the prophet's not perfect.

 

[HotShot]

why did those muslim leaders refuse to shake the hand of a woman? is this something muhammed[shit be upon him] has said to do?

the woman's hand wasnt clean...

 

[*hopeful*]

i hate shaking hands with people i barely know, especially when u just meet someone
gross who knows where its been and what kind of germs its carrying around

i wish there was some other polite gesture.....

 

[HotShot]

i hate shaking hands with people i barely know, especially when u just meet someone
gross who knows where its been and what kind of germs its carrying around

i wish there was some other polite gesture.....

like a kiss on the cheek...

 

[ElendilPeredhil]

why did those muslim leaders refuse to shake the hand of a woman? is this something muhammed[shit be upon him] has said to do?

It's cos muslim men aren't supposed to touch women who are not their relatives.

 

[HotShot]

It's cos muslim men aren't supposed to touch women who are not their relatives.

wtf!.. i thought muslims state that we all came from adam and eve, therefore we are all bros and sisters.. thats the biggest the bullshit.