Long-un strategies for NUS (yet another VSU thread) (1 Viewer)

[walrusbear]

You are one of the first anti VSU'ers I have encountered walrusbear who is not a member of 30 clubs or in any other way recieves less than average benefits from the union. Most VSU'ers are no more selfish (if not less so [they dont demand others money for their activites]) than the majority of anti VSU'ers

i see what you mean
but the pro-USU is a still a collective. you're isolating it as a collective of selfishness, which almost seems like a paradox
whereas the pro-VSU stance is highly individualised, focussed on self concern

 

[katie_tully]

that sounds like nonsense
if you're not going to pay for the union now why would you throw money at it later randomly??

As far as I can see, you USU people are the selfish ones. VSU people are proposing ideas to show you we support the idea of a union, just not necessarily everything it provides. Trying to explain to you that we don't feel we should have to pay for something we dont use, is likg explaining to a child not to eat a crayon.

Nobody is going to throw money at it randomly, fool. The whole idea is that it wont happen, and that with VSU the union will continue to run smoothly anyway. What we're saying though, is that instead of DEMANDING, as you so eloquently put it, why not just ask if it turns out a little financial assistance is needed for things like the bloody "Dj Competition". You may find people are willing to oblige when they're actually asked, rather than forced.

 

[Generator]

I think that I'll take a leaf out of the 'VSUers' book.

Why is it that, by large, all of you supporting VSU are entirely dismissive of the USU stance? Why is it that you all cannot at least recognise that a service does not have to be used by you personally in order for it to be worthwhile or important? How is the belief that we all should support each other in this regard 'selfish'?

So on and so forth, basically.

 

[katie_tully]

- Why can't you see that some people do not agree that it is worthwhile, and would prefer to keep their money?

- Why can't you see that some people do not want to pay for something they don't use?

- Why is it that USU'ers are totally dismissive of a person's right to choose where their money goes?

- On that note, why is it that USU'ers consider those who want to keep THEIR OWN MONEY FOR THEIR OWN USE, selfish, but don't consider "demanding", or "expecting" other people to fund the "cultural experience" of university selfish?

- Why is it that you cannot except that perhaps other people do have a social life, and that some people want to keep their academic life and social life different, rather than combining them?

- Why is it that you're all ready to point the finger and say that funding the cultural experience should be compulsary if you wan't to attend university, when people are paying to go there, as well as other expenses?

- Why is it that you're all ready to dismiss VSU, when it hasn't been implemented, and hasn't been given a chance?

- Why is it that you cannot accept that some people can't necessarily afford to shell out a large sum of money to keep you all in the manner to which you've become accustomed, and have other "worthwhile" uses to put it towards?

And so forth, and so forth.

 

[walrusbear]

VSU people are proposing ideas to show you we support the idea of a union, just not necessarily everything it provides.

proposing ideas??
VSU a reform? give me a break. the government doesn't want ANY form of unionism. gavin brown spoke out against VSU and stated that USYD would institute a system of fees that the uni would distribute for services similar to the union, essentially mimicing it. potentially this could be shaped into whatever bizarre version of unionism you claim to support. however, the government amended the policy setting up heavy fines for any uni who did something like this.
so the policy you're supporting essentially doesn't leave room for any reform. if you like the idea of a union how come you're unwilling to pay for it at all?? do you honestly think any reform will come from this path?

Trying to explain to you that we don't feel we should have to pay for something we dont use, is likg explaining to a child not to eat a crayon.

hahahah i got you the first time what are you waiting for me to agree with you or something?? i'm just ideologically opposed to the idea

Nobody is going to throw money at it randomly, fool. The whole idea is that it wont happen, and that with VSU the union will continue to run smoothly anyway. What we're saying though, is that instead of DEMANDING, as you so eloquently put it, why not just ask if it turns out a little financial assistance is needed for things like the bloody "Dj Competition". You may find people are willing to oblige when they're actually asked, rather than forced.

if i'm not mistaken you and your pro-VSU buddies shat on any form of university clubs or culture as superfluous in the other thread. on one hand you're saying you don't want to pay for things you see as unnecessary, but also claim that you're going to donate money to clubs if you're feeling charitable. i don't get it? you realise VSU will potentially (imo almost certainly) prevent events such as the 'bloody "DJ Competition" you may so benevolently throw some money to.
i don't think the user pay system works at uni

 

[katie_tully]

i like the idea of a union, in the work place. i like the idea of a union at a university, a union that provides a support base. i do not like the idea of being told i'm expected to pay to keep every little social organisation happy.

like we said, you're all quick to dismiss VSU ... but as we've said time and time again, if the majority support the union then nothing is going to change. why are you complaining

don't think the user pay system works at uni

Oh? And why not?

 

[Generator]

Oh? And why not?

The environment that is likely to emerge following the introduction of VSU is not conducive to what should be the university experience. Yes, times are changing, and yes, a number of students do not make use of what is available, but is that reason enough to basically remove the essence of a university in favour of a perverted notion of choice and the idea that a university should not encourage its students to be something more than an 'academic' drone (an exaggeration, yes). Edit:In no way am I saying that student organisations are the paragons of virtue (I have made note of the need for transparency and for greater publicity in the past), but at the same time such a dramatic shift is hardly going to achieve much beyond marginalising all who need aid in a time of need (one of the important, yet hidden, services that nobody seems to like).


Just remember that is an ideological conflict, and it will not be resolved.

 

[walrusbear]

The environment that is likely to emerge following the introduction of VSU is not conducive to what should be the university experience. Yes, times are changing, and yes, a number of students do not make use of what is available, but is that reason to basically remove the essence of a university in favour of a perverted notion of choice and the idea that a university should not encourage its students to be something more than an 'academic' drone (an exaggeration, yes).


Just remember that is an ideological conflict, and it will not be resolved.

well put Generator

 

[Not-That-Bright]

But generator, you cannot honestly believe that those who want the union will choose not to pay can you? They can have their union, and exist in their unionised university while we exist in our non-unionised university

 

[walrusbear]

But generator, you cannot honestly believe that those who want the union will choose not to pay can you? They can have their union, and exist in their unionised university while we exist in our non-unionised university

while i'll probably still choose to pay union fees it tends to prevent or undermine a lot of key 'union' elements if its student representation is only partial

 

[Generator]

But generator, you cannot honestly believe that those who want the union will choose not to pay can you? They can have their union, and exist in their unionised university while we exist in our non-unionised university

A unionised environment... I prefer a relatively secure university environment. You will only know what you are missing when it is gone (actually, given your own circumstances, I guess that that isn't much of an issue, is it?).

 

[walrusbear]

But generator, you cannot honestly believe that those who want the union will choose not to pay can you? They can have their union, and exist in their unionised university while we exist in our non-unionised university

that would be ethically convenient for the pro-VSU stance though
i can understand why you want to believe it, in that case your assertion for individualism doesn't negatively affect others, sadly i don't think it's the case

 

[Xayma]

Only because some people get less than what others get out of it. If everyone was getting a fair share then it wouldn't matter. However, since everyone isnt getting a fair share it will impact on those who get an above average share at the moment.

 

[leetom]

Only because some people get less than what others get out of it. If everyone was getting a fair share then it wouldn't matter. However, since everyone isnt getting a fair share it will impact on those who get an above average share at the moment.

No idividual should be getting anything more out of the Union than another, but as a member of a society he/she probably is, due to the general social interaction.

The problem with giving VSU 'a chance' as I think Tully put it earlier is that VSU does not allow for something like, say, maintaing universal unionism but cutting the annual payment and spending more effeciently, it gives students the oppurtunity to do away with any union contribution whatsoever. The Union cannot possibly reform when the threat of total destruction is such a possibility, especially when the only people continuing to contribute towards the Union will be the old-school Student Unionists who will fight any re-structuring of the Union.

To Korn, who is VSU because he hasn't joined any society, and thus believes that he shouldn't have to pay Union contributions, a re-structuring of the Union can probably cater to your i-hate-uni-fun stance. People such as yourself, who do not intend to join any of the clubs (why you havn't joined any political society I don't know) could, for example, be allowed to be exempt from the Union contribution.

Of course, such people should have their names publisised around campus regularly as fun-haters and anti-uni-enjoyment scum.

 

[iamsickofyear12]

?? that's pretty unsubstantiated
has anyone got any clear indication of the support for the union?? (please don't use the rally turnout as an example, it's flimsy at best)
do a majority of people really want no form of representation?

The rally turnout is the only measure there is. Find me a better one and I will use that.

I think that I'll take a leaf out of the 'VSUers' book.

Why is it that, by large, all of you supporting VSU are entirely dismissive of the USU stance? Why is it that you all cannot at least recognise that a service does not have to be used by you personally in order for it to be worthwhile or important? How is the belief that we all should support each other in this regard 'selfish'?

So on and so forth, basically.

I can recognise that although I personally may not use a service it may still be worthwhile. But I also recognise that it's not only a couple of people that don't use it, it's a lot of people. And of the people who do use it, most of them aren't getting their money's worth.

USU is a great, the problem is that it costs more than it is worth which is why VSU is better.

 

[iamsickofyear12]

that would be ethically convenient for the pro-VSU stance though
i can understand why you want to believe it, in that case your assertion for individualism doesn't negatively affect others, sadly i don't think it's the case

Show me some reliable statistics that say 51% or more of students are for USU and I will change sides. The entire USU argument is based on the majority of students being for it, which is not the case at all. The majority of people are for VSU and I think you seem to be forgetting that.

It is not the people who want VSU and who are making an individual decision that is going to negatively effect others, it's the minority of USU supporters who are making a decision and trying to force a huge majority to pay for something they don't want.

 

[walrusbear]

USU is a great, the problem is that it costs more than it is worth which is why VSU is better.

i don't see how that makes VSU better
VSU is a move away from union involvement, not approaching its flaws with any attempt at reform

 

[walrusbear]

Show me some reliable statistics that say 51% or more of students are for USU and I will change sides. The entire USU argument is based on the majority of students being for it, which is not the case at all. The majority of people are for VSU and I think you seem to be forgetting that.

It is not the people who want VSU and who are making an individual decision that is going to negatively effect others, it's the minority of USU supporters who are making a decision and trying to force a huge majority to pay for something they don't want.

i'm not sure of the breakdown or how'd you even find it.
i mean it's all murky water really, since many probably would want USU if they understood more of its political and social implications and aren't sold by the '$600 in the pocket' calls. apathy is another confounding factor
democratically i suppose if a majority of people want VSU then it's going to happen (although ironically it will pass undemocratically since one party essentially has a senate majority).
i guess it's going to happen regardless

imo it's a bad thing.

 

[iamsickofyear12]

i don't see how that makes VSU better
VSU is a move away from union involvement, not approaching its flaws with any attempt at reform

It makes a VSU a better alternative. I could make a new flavour of chips and they could be really awesome but if I charged $350 a packet no one would buy them, its the same thing with USU.

VSU is reforming the flaws. It is forcing the unions to be efficient and provide value for money to its customers. I couldn't think of a better way for reform.

 

[walrusbear]

It makes a VSU a better alternative. I could make a new flavour of chips and they could be really awesome but if I charged $350 a packet no one would buy them, its the same thing with USU.

VSU is reforming the flaws. It is forcing the unions to be efficient and provide value for money to its customers. I couldn't think of a better way for reform.

reform by removing support and funding?
lets see how it plays out